And don't act like you don't know what I am talking about....There is nothing worse than seeing a girl ask a guy friend (not a boyfriend) for a massage right in front of a group of people knowing that all they are thinking about is if we were not Apostolics this massage would equate to a flirtatious make out with no added emotional attachment....
Oh it just creeps me out....
Such events are most common during conventions when the legalism of "no touching" at camps is no longer in play....so they dudes and chicks just massage their little hearts out thinking it's okay all in the name of getting a tight knot out in the small of one's back.....
Of course, all is fair when massaging is confined to one's gender, (girls seem to always be taking part in massaging madness with each other which seems fine to me.) However, to you dudes who take part in Apostolic massaging with females and say there is nothing sexual about such massages, I ask you one question...would you be okay if next time you ask for a message that I got up as a male and ran my fingers up and down your back?
Didn't think so....
Forget about attacking "Sexting" in youth sermons everywhere, let's start attacking those flirtatious cross-gender massages amongst members of the same youth group....
The Massage Train
This is the holy grail of Apostolic weirdness that comes together once in a blue moon and it's just beyond true understanding unless you have witnessed one yourself. This is the massage train where boys and girls alike line up in mutual weirdness to feel and tickle and rub each others back, shoulders, and hair without guilt of nearly implied fornication.....
And the worse part is, we are all just too weirded out to call foul...
That Guy
When I was in high school a few of my friends and I had a hypothesis...that some effeminate guys acted that way (complete with "Is he or isn't he?" behavior) just to be close to girls because girls think him one of their own....and yet this guy is getting to hang out with hot chicks more than any of us other guys ever could....We were secretly envious of him, but hated him because we hated our envy.
The hypothesis pertains to this post, because I think we are finding some guys within our denomination who are like the effeminate guys, but in relation to massages. These guys go around giving and asking for massages as if they were pennies found on the ground.....And of course no guy gets as much physical contact with the female gender as this guy.....
The "Massage guy" is also the one most likely to be going around giving and offering hugs to every female he gets near....complete with the extra second longer than most male/female hugs should ever come close to.......Pervert!!!!
O it's just soooo weird......Goodness...someone calm the hormones or get your own massage room....I don't need to see that stuff....
AMEN!!!
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with this!!!
Also, those Asian massage places in the mall...Ain't no man gonna touch my back even if it is "Professional" Good topic to challenge and another good post! =)
Couldn't stop laughing... hahahahahahaha
ReplyDeleteWait. Did she just say "even if it's professional?" LOL
ReplyDeleteLOL Ya know those massage stores?! You've never seen those massage places in the mall where ya can pay like money to get a massage?! We got em all over the place here...People that are trained to give massages...thats "CONSIDERED" to be a "Professional" massage...
ReplyDeleteclassic.
ReplyDeleteThank you!!!!! I'm also not so sure about Apostolic men getting professional massages from female masseuses (especially when they NEED one every day 8-S) and vice versa for apostolic women......
ReplyDeleteThere's some weird things going on now-a-days.......
I have found that such massages are common on long bus/van trips. The long ride home from youth congress is the perfect excuse to get an extensive massage.
ReplyDeleteLove the post ...but I guess I haven't been to a convention in a while because I've never seen such a thing!
ReplyDeleteWhat makes women massaging women any more "Christian" than a man massaging her when hidden homosexuality is on an increasingly scary rise, even in apostolic churches?
ReplyDeleteI know the son of a well known apostolic preacher who has struggled with severe feelings of homosexuality since he was a young person. Why? Because he was ALWAYS forbidden to not touch a girl, let alone look at her with any type of intrigue.
Where did it lead him? Down a long path of confusion. So when he started looking at homosexual pornography, he didn't feel like it was a sin because it was only just another man he was looking at, not the "forbidden woman".
It is extremeists that cause such confusion and misunderstandings in the innocent hearts of children and young people. What a shame.
This topic goes way deeper than your petty little "annoyance" of young people flirting. My opinion: If they're flirtation is with the opposite sex and is chaperoned, then it's a natural God-made thing that won't lead to any thing immoral. *note: CHAPERONED.
Sorry if I went "too serious" for what you intended with your post. It's just some thing that I have seen first hand, so I am passionate about it.
To the above Anonymous: It must have been difficult to see this young man battle and ultimately (I assume) give in to the temptation of homosexuality. However, I don't think you can say that the entire thing can be blamed on him being unable to touch/look at a female. Most of our Apostolic young men would be in very big trouble if that were the case. The sin of homosexuality has roots a lot deeper than that, and this particular topic would only be one (likely very small) step into that sin.
ReplyDelete(to anonymous two posts ago): So let me get this straight... Because the pastor's son's masculinity was oppressed in the banning of him touching girls, he somehow interpreted the oppression as a go ahead to look at gay porn?
ReplyDeleteI don't know about that man's past or the events that led him to be homosexual, but I can assure you that his logic is somewhat or entirely flawed.
I don't think it permissible to touch girls in such a manor. I am also a 23 year old virgin. Never have I mistook my own conviction and personal advice of Christian leadership to not touch girls as a go ahead to look at gay porn...
But maybe that's just me....
(the anonymous above had a good response too)....
Not gonna lie - massages are Grrrrrreat! I guess that makes me a sinner. Oopsie.
ReplyDeleteMan I wish everyone would stop posting ANON!!! LOL Some of these comments- like WOW!!! LOL SOMEONE struggles with homosexuality BECAUSE they wern't allowed to TOUCH GIRLS?!?! Okaaaaaaaaaay...The bible does say it is good for a man NOT to touch a woman...i mean that is SCRIPTURAL!!! I liked what the next Anon said and what Joel said! Oh and just wanna say that I also knew a guy that was ALWAYS was really touchy with girls. I mean we all called him THe snake cause he always managed to slither over to girls no matter how far they wre sittin away from them. He always gave hugs, put his arms around girls, gave massages, touched their face or shoulder when talkin to them etc...AND he ended up being gay. Soooooo being ALLOWED to touch a girl also is NOT going to stop someone from being gay!!!
ReplyDeleteThe bible also says, if your hand offends thee cut it off. If we obeyed that scripture literally we'd all be walking around with no hands. Every scripture is up for interpretation. It's not up to us to pick and chose what scriptures we think are "livable" enough to live by word-for-word.
ReplyDeleteThat aside...
Of course not all men will become homosexual by never touching a woman until they're married. That is just a rediculous come back. I was speaking about THIS gentleman's case. Each individual person is very different, obviously.
It is not my or your place to say what caused his homosexual desires initially. I simply told the story as I know it.
And for the record, this gentleman has since become happily married to some one I know and has "worked through" his previous addiction.
You never acknowledged my first question though.
"What makes women massaging women any more 'Christian' than a man massaging her when hidden homosexuality is on an increasingly scary rise, even in apostolic churches?"
And I am staying anonymous for this gentleman's sake. Get over it.
Response to Joel's comment:
ReplyDeleteobviously his "logic" was not acurate! When is the logic behind sin ever completely congruent with proper or Christian thinking?
My point was, it was a sincere struggle that started at a very young age and was contributed by the fact that he KNEW he'd get in trouble if he lusted, looked at, touched (you get the point) a woman. As a man, I think you understand that when you're a young man sexual desires can take over your body and your mind does not function as it normally would when those hormones are running like crazy. 'Nuff said.
My further point was, why is it ok for same-sex young people to touch "intimately" when homosexuality is rampant? Does the bible also not speak about unnatural affections?
You may think that homosexuality is not in your church but I assure you it is in nearly every apostolic church out there. And it will continue to be because there are very few ministries focused on recovery of homosexuality.
What I've seen happen time and time again is ignorant people much like the ones who I've seen comment on here look down their nose at the homosexuals, laughing at their behaviors, making fun of them and never offering a Christ-like love.
So you wonder why these young men and women never "come out" in your churches. Because they KNOW they'll never be looked at the same again because of this phobia we've all created.
Instead they sit and suffer.
Sad.
From the 2nd Anonymous: Although I cannot agree with your logic, I do sympathize with the situation your friend is in and hope he can get through this. I also do agree that the church as a whole has a lot to learn with how to deal with homosexuality the way that Jesus would want us to.
ReplyDeleteWhose looking down at homosexuals anonymous? I think you may be projecting things that are not there....nor have ever appeared in this blog...
ReplyDeleteWOW!!! All this came from that...WOW!!!
ReplyDeleteWell I could same more stuff but I mean its kinda like POINTLESS!!! I'm gettin OVER it! ;)
The word "touch" in "not good for a man to touch a woman" is not the same word we read in our 21st Century, modern-day, English vernacular. Look it up. This is why we shouldn't be so faithful to King James, a foreign language Bible (another great topic for this blog).
ReplyDeleteK well Idk what kinda dictionary that is so like, how about ya just post in an anonymous comment what it means! Please! =)
ReplyDelete.
Questions for Joel:
You said in this first part...There is nothing worse than seeing a girl ask a guy friend (not a boyfriend)
So I am just wondering, do ya think its okay for a guy and girl that are going out to give back massages?!
Addressing question one from anonymous:
ReplyDeleteThere was a question a while back about girls being allowed to massage girls if they are secretly holding lesbian desires...
Answer: I guess if you are really enjoying it in a sexual way, then stop...there is not a science behind this....If you are falling into temptations then don't allow yourself to be tempted. The tone of this blog is satire...I'm really not trying to rewrite the manual or anything
Second Question: There was another question from an anonymous about the interpretation of "touch" in I Cor. 7:1 and how the KJV interpreting "It is good for a man not to touch a woman" is possibly an improper interpretation:
-First, this blog is not theological...I'm not making points about proper translations in Greek....second, I have many qualms with the KJV and some people's tendency to make the KJV an exalted translation....So please don't read into my usage of that verse as a definitive argument of why woman should not touch men...
That said, the KJV is way more often right in their translations than wrong. And after briefly looking into that matter, "touch" definitely has the connotations that the KJV implies....
(especially in regards to the context of this blog of how massaging is inappropriate)....
the touch in 7:1 in greek is "haptomai" which can be ambiguous where it stands alone but when one considers that it is a reflexive verb of "hapto" which means "to fasten" or "to set on fire: spark, kindle," one can certainly see that touching in an inappropriate way which "sets one on fire" can be defined as touching in a male-female context (the entire chapter 7 context deals extensively with the functions of sexuality between a man and woman in a marriage relationship)...so I don't think the KJV is too far off here, and most definitely I think the massaging that is discussed in this post certainly falls under the tent of the "haptomai" which Paul speaks against in I Cor. 7:1....
-Last question from Mary-Mary I was not trying to be a legalist in my post....The reason I included the citation about woman being allowed to massage woman is because I foresaw people questioning me on that issue (never did I think I would be chastised for okaying it which has since happened)...That said, whether it is okay for a boyfriend/girlfriend to do it...I am not one to make that call....I am not trying to be a pastor...nor a legalist, nor a theologian on here...I was just pointing out that us Apostolics like our massages between boy-girl...I would hope that we live our lives as a sacrifice to God and thus live our relationships accordingly, but what exactly that looks like (and what is permissible) is between each couple, God, and their leadership...I'm not going to argue for 6" of Jesus between each couple or anything....I hope you get my point Mary...
I am SOOOOO confused now!!! LOL I mean don't remember even askin about it being okay girls give girls massages-BUT YEAH! Did I chastise you on that?! I know I have chastised on a lot of stuff but NOT that!!! LOL Just for the record I give the girls in my church massages when they ask me to and its really just more annoying than anything cause My hands get tired but WHATEVER!!! I could care less about that...The other thing Joel, yeah I get your point!!! =) Whatever your pastor says...YUP thats RIGHT!!!
ReplyDeleteAlright. I have watched this comment debate for a while, and decided to contribute my two cents. Anon (The one who responded to Glenn): I am not exactly sure how familiar you are with Apostolic churches, but you need to realize a few things: Glenn did not attack anyone. He was merely stating the obvious. Homosexuality is something that gets ahold of your spirit. And yes, I have known enough of them to glean this much from them. It is not just "being interested, or in love with a person of the opposite sex. It is a sexual perversion. Everything sexually related is perverted when it comes to their perspective. There is choice, because God would not create anyone to specifically be homosexual. There are many factors, but it ultimately boils down to a choice. Everyone has one.
ReplyDeleteNow, how Apostolics view homosexuals in church. Regardless of how much people try and sugarcoat it, according to the Bible it is sin. Living in adultery, unforgiven murder, unforgiveness in a heart, they are ALL sins. However, the secular world tries to put an enormous amount of pressure on Apostolics and force them to accept sin. Homosexuals coming to church is fine. Everyone needs God. Because of the sexual perversion that it is, it may make some people feel uncomfortable. Which is understandable. But, we all need to pray for them. My sister and I have brought on to church, and no one has been in the slightest rude to her. But, just as anyone else, repentance is the key.
I do not intend to sound harsh or judgmental. I am merely stating the facts. And Glenn had some very good points. Well worth paying attention to.
God bless
I'm sorry but I have to say I think it is hilarious that a group of apostolics start discussing massages and it leads to an argument about the roots of gay porn. I love this blog!
ReplyDeleteRachel-very well stated. "There are many factors, but it ultimately boils down to a choice." Totally agree!
ReplyDeleteWow ...
ReplyDeletechurch van semi-erotic massages
gay(ish) guys getting chicks
double standards for guys and girls
a kid who's not allowed to look at girls and decides gay porn is the way to go ...
This reminds me of the newspapers on Everyone's Connected.
LOL I know I am now just coming here to read the COMMENTS!!!
ReplyDeleteLOL at this entire thread! Haha, Joel you have unearthed a gold mine! I especially love the discussion on "homosexuality" and its causes...as if you may be walking down the street and catch a case of the gays! Lol, I think these comments are funnier than your blog Joel (no offense, because you know I love your blog)!
ReplyDeleteAaron in Motown
with said logic in place, would it be ok to assume that because the bible suggest that wine is a mocker that I should then gorge on Mcdonalds to satisfy my craving.
ReplyDeleteJust think, none of this would be an issue if people were cautious about who they gave massages to. LOL!
ReplyDeleteSooo, I suppose now would be a bad time to mention, I'm about to finish schooling to be a massage therapist, right? :D and I'm really not a touchy feely person. It's a handshake or a 1 second hug, preferably a side hug. I try to look at the job as a nurse or doctor and think at least I don't have to give shots in the butt or put cathriters (sp?) in :D
ReplyDelete