Firstly, stuff apostolics like has a twitter! You can find the feed at the right side of the page. Follow us. You should find the occasional commentary on SAL topics that do not have enough content to deserve a post and an announcement about a new posting...with this in mind, if anyone has any photo shop skills/creative ideas, a logo for this place would be awfully nice (I'll write a very sincere formal piece of mail to you at your home address/and also on your facebook page....I'll even make my own amateur microsoft paint photo for you (it will be like from a 3rd grader)...
And now to the topic...
This one will probably make me out to be a bad guy (if i am not already)...A long time back I did a preachy post on the horror of how interracial marriage/dating is frowned upon in many circles in our culture...here's one more preachy post...
Apostolics do not like gay people.
It's actually quite a common preaching point complete with Bill O'Reillyesque commentary that God made Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve and that America is a Christian nation and should never allow gay people to marry.
I can specifically remember a preacher at a conference uttering the derogatory term "faggots" across the pulpit and preaching against them. Ironic that undoubtedly 99% of the people in the auditorium were straight (or self-proclaimed straight), and the preacher thought it was high time to preach against the "pandemic" of homosexuality when frankly it's topical relevance to that audience was zero. Sure, we were all suffering from pride, arrogance, selfishness, fornication, disobedience, and a hideous amount of materialism, but why not take 5 minutes that a pastor is paid to speak into the lives of young people and rail against a small minority of people who feel ostracized from society at large as it is?
I was encouraged by the fact that a good quarter of the audience stayed seated and sat shocked by the announcement. I was horrified to see the rest stand up and applaud and amen the preacher right along with it. This happened two years ago.
Last 3 weeks ago, I saw the same evangelist at a youth rally, and he used the exact same preaching point, much to the same reaction.
But it's what we as apostolics do. We find groups that are marginalized and obscure and rail on them without empathy for the dilemma. We avidly disbelieve any claim of the homosexual that they were born this way, and say homosexuality is a choice. And in doing so we feel justified in our paranoia of this "disease."
Now where it gets awkward is those two or three very effeminate men from our church or nearby churches...We know them, we gossip about them, but we will do nothing to reach out. They are too different for us to extend God's loving arm to, so we become friends or acquaintances of them, but leave their troubles and their fears to themselves to figure out.
Now some of you may be thinking that I am justifying the sin. I am not. What irks me is that homosexuality is seen as some kind of super sinner on the fastest road to hell. We have ministries to save drug addicts, fornicators, and alcoholics, but we do not know how/or want to touch the reconciliation of homosexuals with the God that wants so dearly to love them. We are God's helping hand, and we keep it open to every kind of sinner to salvation, but that of the gay person. We may even know a few gay people who were converted, but what irks me is that I do not know who gay person who was converted, who slipped up, and then was still extended further mercy upon their transgressions by the church.
We say to hate the sin and love the sinner. But does this hold true for our treatment of homosexuals?
And then I guess this is where some chime in that it's an abomination in the Old Testament?
I do agree with this. I do not agree with using derogatory terms to describe homosexuals, however, sin is sin in God's eyes. Just because one sin may be more offensive to humanity does not mean it is more offensive to something else to God.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, there are issues we have to face in our society that were not there in Jesus' time. This is where scriptures such as "Avoid all appearance of evil" come into play. Not saying that is THE applicable scripture here, merely making reference to it. Homosexuality is a big deal to Christians now because it holds acceptable prominence in our society. Same as "shacking up". I dunno. It is disturbing to me altogether.
I agree with you both. This is just another example of Christian hypocrisy and with the way we handle homosexuals is deserving of a letter from Paul and letter that would've been in Revelation. Homosexuality is something that's always been around its just in recent years its come out of hiding and more into the mainstream spotlight. So most Christians view this "bold move of the enemy" as a call for the Church to inflict a swift sharp blow by "Crying loud and sparing not" often forgetting to speak the truth in love so that we can grow up in all things. I think it has a lot to do with the older generations and how they know how to do things and their fear of the unknown. My mother can't understand how i'm so comfortable with the sin thats so prevalent in the world today but I thank God that she has the wisdom to understand I live in a different world than the one she grew up in. Like I said earlier, we as the Church, especially young people in the church have a responsibility to Christ and to the lasting function of the church and bring the one thing that really matters back to the forefront of it all...and that's LOVE. Jesus talked about that more than anything, Paul said you can do all these spiritual things but without Love you're just making noise, and at the end of it all God is what? LOVE. So it's time for us all to be pragmatic and practical in our love and lay off on the unnecessary "tough love" that we inflict on many people, including our homosexual brothers and sisters. And just to shake things up...I do believe there will be many homosexuals in heaven. That is all.
ReplyDeleteThis is a great post after discussing the sin of gluttony. It is amazing to me how as individuals we think it is okay to commit one sin, yet attack someone else who has committed a 'worse' sin.
ReplyDeleteExcellent and thought provoking.
Perfectly said and much needed.
ReplyDeleteLiving in the greater San Francisco area, I have been given a new perspective on homosexuality because I see so much of it. I don't accepting the sin as 'ok' by any means, but realize that it's not in a separate class of it's own just because it's 'socially taboo'. To be honest, I think most Christians are just scared of homosexuals. It's very bazaar. You mention the word homosexual or gay, and people either get VERY abrasive and rude, or they get nervous and uncomfortable. No one seems to know how to approach the issue.
I do hope that more churches will start to reach out to their homosexual communities with love, free of condemnation.
Bottom line: Christians need to let go of their homophobia.
If I may quote from that service, I believe the evangelist also said "My God son, put some bass in your voice" and then something else about homosexuals in the choir. It just kills me how some people can be so clueless. As a christian and part of the UPC no less, I wasn't exactly a super majority in my school. The kids there knew who I was and knew what church I went to. As such, it was kind of hard for me to make friends. People had these pre-suppositions about me and I wasn't widely accepted. I also don't really care for sports much (with the exception of baseball) and since in my community the only thing that draws students together is either sports or marijuana, I wasn't in with the "in" crowd. My group of people turned out to be "The Literary Group", "The Artists", the kids from drama club, the computer geeks. We were the ones that would alway hang out. Out of this group there were quite a few homosexuals actually who were afraid of me! They distanced themselves away from because they knew what church I went to. That is terrible! It took me a little while to break down these barriers but once I did, they turned out to be some of my greatest friends for those four years. Homosexuals have be so slandered and cut down that in a rural setting they are willing to listen to and accept almost anyone. They have an open mind and are willing to listen to you, that's more than I can say for many people I have come in contact with. I also listen to an artist who is gay but he has some christian songs. This is just another thing that the church has let society rule the importance of the sin. I hate that. I hate that we will let people tell us that one sin is more deadly than the other because society hasn't quite grasped it. I know people that have pre-marital sex but they still sing on the platform. I can understand how gays can be driven away from church with preachers like the afore mentioned and churches and church members who push them away because they are so closed minded, sheltered, and incapable of understanding what to do themselves.
ReplyDeleteVery good discussion. I do think the church as a whole lacks compassion on the homosexual community and it is mainly out of ignorance and fear.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I believe anyone battling this IN the church or OUT needs to be treated with compassion. I know of people in the church that have overcome this sin. My husband worked for several years taking care of a building that had a gay bar, an AIDS office (not sure how to word that), and GLTB office. He did not "catch" homosexuality. I am quite sure that most of the clientele in that entire building did not know that he believed homosexuality was even a sin. And he learned a lot just by working there.
In my own church, when homosexuality is brought up, I am quite confident there is a reason that someone in the congregation needed to hear about it. I am blessed to have a level-headed, balanced pastor.
One point to Glen: Because homosexuality is now becoming more bold than ever, I believe the negative reaction is that much more. I have never had an alcoholic or drug addict (and I grew up with one) BOLDLY and proudly promote their lifestyle. However, I do know of homosexuals that do. That is one of the reasons it is more of a turn off.
And Louis.....I am assuming that you believe there will be homosexuals in heaven that are NOT living that lifestyle?
I call them overcomers.
"We may even know a few gay people who were converted, but what irks me is that I do not know who gay person who was converted, who slipped up, and then was still extended further mercy upon their transgressions by the church." Such a true statement! A pastor once told me that if a homosexual still struggled with temptation after recieving the Holy Spirit then he didn't really want to change and was only putting on a show. If ths is true..then it should apply to any other sin...and anyone who is tempted doesn't really love God...so therefore we are all headed for hell in a handbasket!
ReplyDeleteBTW...why can we talk about any sin with no need to clarify that we think it is wrong...but when it comes to homosexuality we almost always feel the need to point out "now I'm not saying that I think it's acceptable!"?
And...now...to play devils advocate...Hebrews 4:14-16 says this, "14 So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe. 15 This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin. 16 So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most."....does this mean Jesus was tempted as a homosexual? It says he faced all the same testing we do...and if he didnt...how could he understand the plight of the homosexual? Just a thought.
Now I am going to keep myself anonymous so that no one cames and slaughters me in my sleep for being a heretic. :)
Great Apo Ministries that reach out to the Gay-Lesbian community-
ReplyDeleteLighthouse Ministries: UPCI Affiliated and led by Nello Pozzobon...an truly humble and loving Christian. Even though most people tune out what he is saying about the need to reach out to the Gay and Lesbian Community, he is not cynical or angry...
His Touch Ministries: Reaches out to AIDS sufferers and by virtue of proximity to the issue is making a footprint in the Gay and Lesbian circles...led by Ray Highfield...associated with Global Outreach Ministries
I don't really have much to add to the discussion, seeing as it hasn't been as much of a debate as I was hoping it'd be, but I'll just add a comment from my own experience which was similar to the one anonymous poster about their friendship with homosexuals in high school.
ReplyDeleteI was the only apostolic pentecostal girl in my high school and was lucky to have the small group of friends I had who didn't treat me differently. They still made fun of me every once in awhile for wearing skirts and for how long my hair was, but the one guy member of our group was the only one who never acted liked I was different at all and treated me the same as he did our other friends.
During our junior year of high school, Aaron came out to us, and I was the last one he told about it. I was shocked, mostly just because I had never guessed it, but was equally shocked to hear that I was the last person he told because he was afraid I wouldn't be friends with him anymore. It made me sad that even though he had always treated me the same as everyone else despite being different, he expected me to ostracize him because of my religion. I swore to him that I still loved him as much as I did 10 minutes ago when I thought he was straight, and that he really underestimated my christianity if he thought I would act hatefully like that. I felt like I had done a good job of showing God's love to him when he expected the negativity most christians blast gays with.
My whole frame work of showing Aaron how tolerant we were was ruined when he found out my dad thought I shouldn't be friends with him anymore. He used to give me rides home some days, and it just really irked my dad that I was spending time alone with him. In my thinking I'd assume any dad would feel better about his little girl being alone with a guy who 100% WOULDN'T be trying to make a move on her, but my dad was afraid he'd spread his gayness to me. Where one day Aaron was able to come inside and hang out for a bit when dropping me off, after coming out, he'd just drop me off in my driveway.
I have to cut my dad a break, because I realize he comes from a different generation with different ideals that were instilled in him, but it really showed me how naive I was about how far we still have to come to authentically show God's love and I'm praying the minority of us who "hate the sin and love the sinner" at some point becomes the majority.
My bad! It's Beacon Ministries (www.beaconministries.net), not Lighthouse Ministries.
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous who said:
ReplyDelete"BTW...why can we talk about any sin with no need to clarify that we think it is wrong...but when it comes to homosexuality we almost always feel the need to point out "now I'm not saying that I think it's acceptable!"?
Because, there are now oneness churches who embrace homosexuality - not to help them - but to accept them AS THEY ARE without the expectation of change. That is why I need to clarify that it still is, and will always be UNACCEPTABLE.
There is one thing, however, that is cause for disturbance. I spent 7 weeks in close living quarters with an open lesbian. Every day I would hear lewd, sexual comments from her foul mouth. I am not painting every homosexual in this light by any means whatsoever, but hearing that over and over and over again wears on you. You get used to it, and gradually stop cringing inside. That is the problem I have with spending inordinate amounts of time, or getting close to homosexuals or anyone with perverted sexual preferences. I DONT want to get used to it. I dont want to be desensitized to sexual perversion. I want to reach out, yes, and be a light, yes, but not at the expense of being callous and desensitized.
ReplyDeleteLynne your opinion echo's a lot of us. I agree.
DeleteI think its interesting that the fatties are being called out but the homos need more compassion!!! WOW!!! This blog REALLY does make me SICK!!!
ReplyDeleteLOLZ @ ANGRY ANONYMOUS GUY
ReplyDeleteI think you've opened up a can of worms with this one, Joel. But allow me to be the Foucauldian and interject this refrain: let's please be careful not to turn this into a "enlightened" view/generation vs. a backwards view/generation. All viewpoints expressed here are human understandings/conceptions of Truth and are therefore necessarily stained by subjectivity.
ReplyDeleteLet's remember that the open, understanding way of behaving toward homosexuals is itself often times bound by a panoply of anachronistic assumptions that have their origins not in a Godly conception of the human condition, but in the eighteenth century creation of the subjective self.
Am I justifying the fearful, onanistic attacks on homosexuals by the preachers mentioned above? Of course not (I think discussing the narrative/structural requirements of a "successful" sermon would be fascinating future blog post/potential dissertation topic.) What I am trying to say is that we should not, can not, be satisfied with one way of seeing things because in the end it is constrained by our human faculties.
Let's keep speaking about this, keep bringing up topics that make us uncomfortable and shake our understanding, but let's not allow these new avenues of thought to become reified as truths.
To Angry Anonymous Guy...
ReplyDeleteThe Fatties are never called out. The Gay and Lesbian folks are always marked for shunning. Read the blog titles...
THINK! It changes things
Lynne: "I dont want to be desensitized to sexual perversion"
ReplyDeleteThat is very true. I feel personally that I have become (somewhat) desensitized to homosexuality since living in an area where it is so much more common. Even though when I see it, it still upsets me, it doesn't surprise me any more... which was not the case at all 5, 10 years ago.
That being said, it also doesn't surprise me when I turn on the news and hear about a cop being shot to death, girl being raped, or a drug overdose killing a teenager.
Makes one sit and reevaluate personal morals & values.
To Angry Anon: Being "fat" in the context that was described in the previous post has to do with willingly shoving 3 pies down ones throat or eating till you can hardly breathe. So to make a comparison between these two posts seems silly in my opinion.
Homosexuality is often times a very deep issue that has roots in a persons childhood, etc. that REQUIRES a compassionate approach in order to see full redemption.
Overeating to the point of obesity however is a day to day choice that can be overcome by common sense.
PS. Obesity that is linked to medical issues that has nothing to do with food intake is not what I'm talking about.
After rethinking what I said previously, I think my point is better said like this: (although it may be redundant).
ReplyDeleteI have a BIG problem with homosexuals who flaunt their lifestyle. They are the ones who take part in Gay Pride parades, etc. You do not see alcoholics, drug addicts, and even fornicators or adulterers having a big parade to flaunt their lifestyle. Most of them realize they are bound by their addiction and realize that it is nothing to flaunt.
So, for the homosexuals seeking deliverance from their problem - the church should be there 100 percent for them, working with them and showing compassion. Not pounding the pulpit and condemning them to hell, either. They are NOT the ones that flaunt it. But for the ones who do flaunt this "unnatural" lifestyle - God's words - you'll receive my compassion only when you stop flaunting it.
Sorry if that's harsh, but in thinking this discussion through, that's what it comes down to for me.
Well Darla I have to ask you a question. I can understand not wanting someone to flaunt their sexual endeavors in your face, but I will most likely support someone who marches for something especially if it's a freedom of this nature. I may not agree with being homosexual, but I believe that they should have the right to be joined in a legal union. I would not call it marriage, for that is a term with origins going back to the church I believe(correct me if I'm wrong) but I still believe that they have a right to legal union. America was founded as a government with a separation between church and state. Marriage between a man and a woman is a Christian thing, why should they be subject to someone else's belief. If our nation truly allowed people to have that freedom, then gays would be allowed to marry. I have no problem with a gay parade because they should have that right. Are you proud to be a Christian? They to are proud of who they are. I completely understand you when you do not desire to hear about what takes place in the relationship, but they should have the right to organize and rally for their cause.
ReplyDeleteJoel said:
ReplyDelete"We have ministries to save drug addicts, fornicators, and alcoholics, but we do not know how/or want to touch the reconciliation of homosexuals with the God that wants so dearly to love them. We are God's helping hand, and we keep it open to every kind of sinner to salvation, but that of the gay person."
Anonymous: You have missed the point. Homosexuals who want to "marry" (and I DEFINITELY am not on the same page as you as to legalizing that) or who flaunt it are NOT repentant and are not looking for deliverance or reconciliation.
Pretty sure I see fornicators, adulterers, alcoholics and drug addicts who flaunt their sin every day. Pretty sure at one point I was one of them who tried to reason away what I was doing. Pretty sure God knocked me upside the head and set me straight. Maybe, if you don't see people flaunting any other sin besides homosexuality you may not be paying attention. Or perhaps you live in a very small town. I don't know.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate this post so much. Basically it is addressing how easily we judge others. That is my biggest pet peeve. Just because our skirt is a certain length and our trimmed hair is tied up in a knot so no one can see, we somehow have the right to judge anyone who doesn't look like us or who wasn't raised like us. Jesus' entire ministry was against that attitude. He called out the Pharisees and other religious leaders who looked the part, but had judgmental hearts. He showed love to the outcasts, (the Samaritans of his day) and specifically said, I do not condemn you. He ate and fellowshipped with sinners who had yet to repent.
I am so thankful someone didn't judge me but finally after a years of searching showed me the true love of God. I had never truly felt loved by God, just judged. Its an amazing feeling to finally find love, forgiveness and the power to change lifestyle habits.
Governmental opinion and moral opinion are quite separate (or at least should be seen distinct). One reflects a view of how the government should function and response to particular issues, and the other is how God responds, thus how the Church should respond to particular issues. Unfortunately, it's more than an occasional "bleed over" but a definite amalgamation that has taken place.
ReplyDeleteBe a citizen of a republic, but that must always be second to our citizenship for a Higher Kingdom.
Except, Glen, that it is unnatural for man with man and woman with woman (according to God), so yes, I will cringe to see them kissing each other.
ReplyDeleteAgain, my dad is an alcoholic. I grew up around his friends. My dad and his friends always had a good time, but were miserable creatures after the fact and couldn't hide it. I see homosexuals who are both miserable "after the fact" (I know some personally and consider them my friend), and some who proclaim loudly they are very happy and do not seem in any way miserable in their choice. They do not want redemption.
That's the difference I am talking about.
Thanks for the great discussion.
Homosexuality is the ultimate selfishness, the abomination, the most distorted and final outcome of a sinful heart.
ReplyDeleteHow do you respond?
I think you are losing some fans when you start supporting (politically) gay marriage. It attempts to put everyone in the same box, and fall into the trap that if one doesn't agree with changing the institution of legal marriage, they must be unloving or even angry. I don't think that's fair or honest for that particular subject, which could take up hours of debate. There's some good ones out there.
Otherwise, I think this is well-said. It's not isolated to Apostolic/Classical Pentecostals either. Pretty much the entire Evangelical movement.
Recently someone said they couldn't live in a particular city because "there are too many fags." I understand the human reaction to be normal where we all see something so blatantly distorted, but its troublesome to develop an attitude that creates a class of lepers. Even if they are bold about their sin, lying beneath the surface is a soul that seeks love and compassion -- and of course unashamed truth. We need not be insecure about our positions on this issue.
By the way, enjoying this post.
"Last 3 weeks ago" --- hahahaha
ReplyDeleteJust throwing this out there,
ReplyDeleteTitus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
Since we all have sinned and still do, I would just like propose the concept that gay's who love God, were filled with the Holy Ghost and Baptized, will go to Heaven. They are in sin (just as we all are in sin) but that doesn't bar them from Heaven.
However, the purpose of the Holy Ghost is to live above sin. Not to live IN sin. I, by no means, agree with this statement because it completely denies the purpose of the Holy Ghost. Knowingly living in sin is wrong: would you apply the same thing to a murderer. If he or she was so-called filled with the Holy Ghost, but still went around killing someone...that is definitely not Biblically sound. True repentance means to turn away from your sin, not to keep living in it. And, you haven`t repented if you are still sinning. It completely negates the entire purpose of salvation, believing this way. God does extend his grace and mercy, but there is a time for judgement as well.
ReplyDeleteBut we all sin. We are imperfect and will be until the return of Jesus Christ so we are still living in sin. I don't care if it's homosexuality or something else, sin is sin.
ReplyDeleteThis is a bit radical...but what Anonymous said in the last couple of posts is what I was hinting at at the end of my earlier post.
ReplyDeleteI am 100% in agreement that homosexuality is wrong and that it should not be preached across the pulpit as an accepted "practice" and what not.
However, over the last couple of months I've become a firm believer in the concept of love and the power of God's love for us as is taught in the Scripture. As Apostolics we say with our mouths that we love, but our mindsets and our actions say otherwise. I don't look down on anybody, Apostolic or not, that has a firm belief in holiness and righteous...something that we pride ourselves on so much but we like to excuse our lack of love and lack of understanding of God's love by hiding behind the banner of holiness and taking a stand against all else.
During tight binds like this we like to throw out bible verses like the one that says we ought to obey God rather than man and we're AOK with taking an unpopular stance...but have you ever thought about taking an un-popular stance within our own Apostolic culture?
I believe that the Bible teaches fairness, practicality, moderation, and deep thought. Though the Bible gives a long litany of the kind of people that won't enter into the kingdom of heaven I believe that that is talking about un-regenerate people that never knew God.
Salvation is not as plain and simple as we'd like to make it out to be. The Acts 2:38 1,2,3s of salvation isn't as cut and dry as we wish it was. If you start asking yourself some questions about certain things...you'll be left stumpped.
With that in mind, I know that there are some individuals that firmly believe the Apostle's doctrine, went down in Jesus' name and were filled with the Holy Ghost and are truly anointed. Who are we to say how far God's grace will extend? Who are we to serve as the gatekeepers of heaven? Or job is to proclaim the kingdom of God and show people love.
If we believe that the homosexual that is in the church is wrong, which I'm sure we all do, then our Christian duty is to take them to the side and talk with them about it, show them the Scripture and let God deal with them. they could be stubborn and hard headed, they could never have been saved in the first place, it may be the emotional struggle of their life. Honestly...we're human beings and we simply JUST DON'T KNOW.
Why don't we learn to be REAL with ourselvs and others and maybe...just maybe more people will come into the church and accept Christ.
Love is what get's people into the church not tongues. And it's questioning previous held notions that bring a person into deeper knowledge.
o yeah follow me on twitter if you have 1! lol. @fireduppk238
Of course you have to love. However, love doesnt excuse sin. If people are going out murdering and coming back to church we still have to love them even though they are murderers. Same goes for homosexuals. God does, however, require change. Just because a person is taking a stand against sin, doing their best to live above sin through the power of the Holy Ghost, does not mean they do not love people. Love is a cop-out and excuse to do whatever you want because people do not want to change their lives. Its misused and misunderstood.
ReplyDeleteNow they have the Affirming PEntecostal Church.. you don't know how many Bible colelge students and young males called to ministry deal with homosexuality or bisexuality andnever come out.. would shouck you.. and this is in the apostolic movement.
ReplyDelete