Editor's Note- When you search Apostolic in Google, this site is the fifth page that pops up. So thank you for continually visiting, even when I'm off in some netherworld totally neglecting my duty to the Truth of the Oneness Pentecostal message. That said, I'm hoping to move up on the list. Not because this site needs publicity or money (since the ads are gone). But because there's some real damaging things going on within Oneness Pentecostalism. Unacceptable behavior and beliefs for sure. The homophobia I've seen on Facebook is shocking. The silliness of this girl has provided me months worth of material to write about:
And then there's the following guest post that I was sent a couple months back which addresses ludicrous behavior of one of the most loved preachers within the movement...
As James Joyce via the Bible said "I'LL PAY YOUR DUES, FATHER, WHEN YOU CEASE TURNING THE HOUSE OF GOD INTO A POLLING-BOOTH."
Anyways, to the post:
Not sure if this hits too close to home for "naming people" - but I was incensed to read a recent Facebook post by Matt Maddix. (I am not his "fan" on FB or in life, but it happened to be shared by someone I'm connected to who is.) The post:
Oh, what "vision map" would that be? Could it somehow be related to the ~$10,000 worth of services and products you sell under your “persona”? We’re talking everything from $1,000 worth of Outreach training sessions to $4.95 to simply hear an MP3 of you with Joy Haney. And while you’re at it, pick up “The Healing Power of Juicing” for the low, low price of $15.00.
You know, back in 1890, some joker used to drive through towns claiming to be 100% convinced that if you drank his snake oil solution, you'd be cured of arthritis, baldness and headaches, too. But he wasn't around for more than a week or two to sit by your bedside. These costly "revival solutions" amount to as much as that. Then the home missions pastor is left behind to wonder why his church is still languishing.
I'm convinced that pastors who are struggling with growth are struggling with relevance. The more I see here on the east coast, the more I find the only growth in traditional Pentecostal churches seems to be found in undereducated communities. Or those who are educated are in a position of rapidly degrading health and desperate for answers from any source. (Note: I’m not talking about those who “grew up in the church”. This is specific to “new converts”.) I challenge you to look around at all your new converts over the last 5-10 years. How many of them had college degrees or successful business ventures before “getting in church”?
You know the old clichés we all heard growing up: those with formal education are relying upon the wisdom of man instead of the wisdom of God. But it's difficult to convince someone with critical thinking skills that much of what defines us as Pentecostals has anything to do with true Christianity when they read their Bibles. The clothing, the scare tactics, the emphasis on speaking in tongues instead of the emphasis on the fruit of the Spirit...it all falls short of the whole picture that is the Gospel. Just like the snake oil salesman preyed upon the ignorant, so our traditional Apostolic churches find success in those who aren't educated enough to ask the right questions.
And since the stance of many Apostolic/Pentecostal churches has been to scorn “secular college” (instead, begrudgingly allowing their kids to attend unaccredited Bible colleges, as if there’s even an comparison between the quality of education of the two), is it a wonder that someone has come along to successfully build a business off the backs of our undereducated pastorate?
So, yes, if I could profit like Mr. Maddix, I’d be “100% convinced” of the success of my revival solutions, too. Because if you can’t sell it to yourself, you certainly can’t sell it to the rubes.
I attended a Soul Winner's Bootcamp back in 2007. I learned that if there are about ten people to every "sinner" that the more you shout and push on them the more likely they are to start babbling just to get you off their backs.
ReplyDeleteIn a positive light, I got to go to Florida for the first time ever. ;)
I can't stand to be around people who don't educate themselves. I am not even talking about secular education (which is definitely a bonus), but just simply reading, EVERYTHING. Apostolics are discouraged from attaining any knowledge. They don't even have any clue to how Trinitarians really believe. They are so focused on the word trinity and trying to define it for the Trinitarians. Joel, you are correct in saying that most new converts are not successful, educated people. What does this religion offer people who are already happy? Oh, wait they really don't know what true happiness is right? I have to say that for the first time in my life, that I am not living in fear, and am on a road to happiness. I was never happy in the UPC movement, was always one of the "nobodys" that tried to be a somebody in the church. I could never again return to that kind of mind set again. Thanks for sharing, what most ex-Apos, think about. I feel more justified (oops not a words I should condone! ;) in my way of thinking and feeling.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteActually, I personally know three very successful entrepreneurs who have prayed through/ joined the UPC movement just this year. One of them has a doctorate, the second has a master's degree, and the third never finished high school but is a masterful tradesman whose business profit reached 1 million for the first time last year.
DeleteLiving isn't about our happiness. It's about God. Furthermore, why attain happiness? Happiness is only dependent on external circumstance. Today I can be happy, but tomorrow I may wake up with a headache and be unhappy. Now, does God want us to have good, fulfilled lives? Absolutely. But it's not wise to make your own happiness your ultimate goal or the measure for life quality. The better alternative is joy. God gives the Spirit-filled believer the joy of the Lord, which gives us joy internally, regardless of fickle emotion.
That being said, I also know countless who grew up in UPC who have bachelor's degrees, and many who have higher degrees. And I am really only familiar with those in Texas. It's pretty presumptuous to assume that the millions who are part of this organization are all ignorant and have "nobody" mentalities.
DeleteI have NEVER heard a preacher discourage education, and I've heard very many in my 27 years in this faith.
I'm sorry that your experience was so negative, but judging by the extreme growth I've been seeing, I don't think yours is typically the case.
Ouch.
ReplyDeleteThere may be some "healing" in juice, but its not like there aren't a plethora of books out there already about that very topic. I am also, however, incensed when someone charges for things when they should be giving them away. If you really want to see those churches grow, why not send them a free copy?
Matt Maddix has actually opened up his entire SoulWinners material so every church can grow. It's available online and 100% free.
DeleteThere will always be naysayers in his world and we are not instructed to argue with them. Jesus is our model, if any will not hear, shake the dust off your feet... There are plenty of people who want what is offered in the word of God without begging ... Or trying to convince. Prayer is all that can be done now. One day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Oh, and Jesus was a carpenter by trade, not highly educated in his human form. A blue collar laborer, like most of the population. A common man.
DeleteYeah, Jesus was a socialist. He was all for government taking citizens' money and dispersing it how they saw fit. Oh wait, he preached voluntarily helping others which is a product of capitalism; working and giving away some of what you have earned.
DeleteI keep wondering if someone will come on and comment that the premise of this post is flawed and that they have loads of new converts in their UPC church with college or post-grad education. Or at least a representative sampling of the population. I know in my experience, I haven't seen this in the UPC. Or if people who have degrees do receive the Holy Ghost, they don't stick around once they see the extra-Biblical traditions that are imposed on its congregants. Really makes you think - why is this the case?
ReplyDeleteOn the topic of Maddix, I think the biggest indictment here is the fact that he actually has an eCommerce site where he details these services down to such minutiae - It's one thing if he needs to charge for demands on his time (such as traveling, speaking), but you have to pay just to hear a recording of this guy. And he's selling Church Growth services right along side his fad diet book and business and sales coaching seminars. And then there are his soul winning methods that @Nicole mentions, and that's a whole 'nother issue.
That's not my experience with the UPCI population. My church contains countless college educated saints... teachers, respiratory therapists, speech pathologists, college professors, a psychologist, paralegals, medical transcriptionists, a podiatrist, nurses, financial analysts, general business-people, and also some very successful entrepreneurs. I'm sure there are more I don't personally know about. Some of these are new converts and some grew up in the church.
DeleteThank you Lani ,I have lived for God for 37yrs. My church congregation is numbered at approx. 200. we have 1 medical doctor, 1 dentist and another that recently moved, 1 licensed CPA, 1 licensed engineer, 3 RNs, 2 or 3 LPNs, 2 masters that are my personal friends, several bachelors, There are 3 major business's ,one that does several million/yr.. i know my personal income at 280k/yr is not in the top 5 among my church friends. But, Thank God thats not what makes us a part of the church (body of Christ). Living for God has been, and always will be, based on our relationship with Him, not a degree. Thank God ,He does have rules. Something this generation cant abide with. What a mess it would be with every man doing that which is right in his own sight!
DeleteI'm concerned because the NT was littered with "intelligent" people receiving salvation. Rome and the Greek world were some of the most educated people of that day and the Apsotle's were able to establish churches in those areas that, still today, have some form of Christian churches.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is, salvation is faith-based but after salvation is man-based. The intelligent and wealthy can accept the Gospel but we do not live in 1950 anymore where we can use "scare" tactics to get people to listen and do everything the pastor says. Gone are the days when people would do whatever just for the sake of being a part of the church. Today, people need logic, reasons and understanding.
I think that's why the book of Romans is one of he hardest books in the NT to read and understand; Paul was on a different level speaking to those people becauase of their mindset. But he was simple in other letters where the knowledge of the people wasn't quite so much. People understand right vs. wrong but the biggest thing this movement is afraid of is letting the Holy Spirit lead people down these paths. I'm sure if we travelled back in time to the 1st century church, we would find a diverse culture of Christians than we do today in the Apostolic church. We would find Romans (still living like Romans but without the emphasis on idol worship). We would find Greeks (still living like Greeks but without the indulgence on the stars, gods, etc.) We need to get back to the basics and allow the Spirit to lead a diverse group of people again so we can reach the intelligent, wealthy, prominent but also the poor, needy and hurting.
Something was said this morning by a visiting minister, something that has disturbed me. It doesn't fall under this topic but I didn't know where else to talk about it...
ReplyDeleteHe said that it is "scientific fact" that if a man allows his hair to be long for two years he will begin to fight homosexuality.
He's a great guy and I've enjoyed his preaching...but what?
I once heard that men who wear shorts lead to homosexual tendencies. So it's not just isolated to where you are, it happens everywhere. It's a scare tactic people use when they can't logically explain their belief, they always take it to the extreme and make it so off base. You know, just like the "I'd rather have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it" mentality.
DeleteLol, my father has had long hair all his life and he's the most non-homo man I've ever met! He's a rough and tough big biker dude who likes the women. Definitely never dealt with homo tendencies. People say stuff like this to try to scare others into not doing it. Just like the Holy Magic Hair sermon by Lee Stoneking....it's a huge joke. If you listen to the first five minutes and actually research out what he starts his sermon with (it's a fact that the word "long" is derived from the Greek words kome and komao which mean uncut!) you will find that is NOT the case, he's outright lying, and the rest of his sermon is crap as well. It's just fear, fear, fear. We need to take the time to actually search out the scriptures, and we need to be like the Bereans who even questioned everything the Apostles were telling them until they proved they were true. They were commended.
DeleteI don't understand why we need to resort to that sort of nonsense.
DeleteWe have a lot of sheep now who will believe anything that is said across the pulpit and that is dangerous because the preachers don't have to make sure their statements are accurate. If they hear something, they believe it and pass it on. I'm not like that - I'm going to examine things. I'm frequently using my phone during church to look up facts that are spouted off. Sometimes people are very offended by this, too.
You should have asked him for reference. Maybe he read a study from an erroneous source. People are not 100% perfect. Expect them to make mistakes, even... *gasp*... preachers.
DeleteThere are many college graduated people in my church. That being said, many successful doctors and business owners of many different types. My grandpa who was an Oneness Pentecostal had four doctorates (about 28 different degrees from different colleges.) and in my personal opinion (since that is very open here) I believe that most transparent people may seem like they have an edge... Just because they explain details that not everyone understands... They end up becoming a target that is commonly misunderstood. In my personal experience with Matt Maddix I have ONLY seen someone who is well educated and discerned. The only reason I believe if people do not like him are people who are not wanting to be exposed themselves.
ReplyDeleteExactly. I can't even begin to count the number of college educated people in my church, including myself. When I met Matt Maddix, I immediately felt the love of Christ and saw it in his interactions with others. He truly loves people. As for selling things he wrote, well of course he does, and so do countless other authors, because that's the point. We give them money so we can have their material to read; that's called business. Not to mention, Matt Maddix has opened up his entire Soul Winners material on his website. It's 100% free to have his tips for evangelism. This blog post is ridiculous.
DeleteI have a question for you, doesn't the Christian community (outside the UPC) also sell books, and products for a living - ? For example: Beth Moore, or TD Jakes, not to mention Christian Radio shows, Walk in the Word, Insight for Living. I've purchased their books, and was happy them. Would you really consider that "Selling souls for money?" Or could it be considered helping to enhance another Christian's walk - ? Or making information available to the public. He authored a book on juicing, I'm sorry I don't see the evil behind that.
ReplyDeleteMay I ask you this: Have you actually investigated how juicing has changed many individual's lives for the better? I work in the healthcare field, in the field of Radiology, (I am a strong patient advocate) and many symptoms leave after the patients completely change their diets. (LifeStyle Changes) There is a book called Living Foods Revolution, by Cherie Calbom. Ms. Calbom is a Christian woman, and She's known as the "Juice Lady." She shares her own testimony regarding suffering from fibromyalgia. Ms. Cherie Calbom said she was cured within three months of juicing. The reason I know about this book is because I had extremely bad asthma which went on for over five months in the end of 2012. The medical doctors treated my symptoms with albuterol and a steriod inhalor - and nothing was working, so they recommended increasing the steriod I was taking. I came across a Yahoo news clip on the "Juice Lady" and tried it out. Within a week my cough and symptoms of asthma were gone. I notified my physican of these results, and she dismissed them. I very much believe that changing diet to include LOTS of fruits and vegetables EVERY DAY - (as well as COMPLETELY getting rid of fats, and sugars. etc) will make us healthier, feel better, and live longer. There really was a reason that God called called Israel to have a different diet than the communities around them. Spiritually, I believe changing our diet matters - I find that information from the book of Daniel 1:13-15 where he says, " prove us for ten days to see if we are not healthier and stronger" - in fact Daniel 1:17 says, "As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams." They were God's called out people - they consecrated their bodies to Yahweh God - and though immersed in Babylon, they withdrew from their practices - and one of those practices was eatting their meats, or drinking their wine. I see a correlation within the New Testament scriptures as well (diet, health and lifestyle). This is just a thought. I've looked over some of your posts, and you seem really angry. I came across it by accident when I was doing some research this week.
May I ask you another question: Do you personally know Matt Maddix? That's a very ugly accusation to sell souls for money. Anyway, and if you know him, have you ever talked with him over what your thoughts are? I believe that writing scathing posts, and blasting another human being is unChristian like. The Bible tells us in Matthew 18:15 to go directly to the person who has offended us first - before sharing it with the entire congregation. So you would be considered Biblically out of the order Jesus put forth. But then again, Jesus' intention was to "gain a brother."
ReplyDeleteAfter skimming through your blogs I believe that you feel yourself to be better person, and smarter individual and more educated than the UPC, and more doctrinally sound - but I really don't see Christ in your words or actions either. Sorry, I had to share that. Remember this: Nothing that defiles may enter the kingdom of God. (See: Revelation 21:8; 21:27; Galatians 5:20; I Corinthians 6:10 - Matthew 13:41)
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 21:14
And Galatians 6:1-
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For every man shall bear his own burden. Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
I agree!
DeleteI know him. And I know he was after a girl who's husband was about to die before he actually passed. They were together before the body was even cold. What a guy.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I know him. Not a good guy. He hides behind his "christian mask" in his pursuit of chasing multiple women while feeding them all the same promises of marriage and loyalty. Exactly what a guy!!!!
DeleteLord, Help these people for they know not what they do... You don't talk about a man of God and get away with it.. Lord bless your souls... Acts 2:38... Repent, being baptized in JESUS name, and being filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues is the ONLY way you will make it to heaven.. Jesus said it best expect a man be born of the WATER and of the SPIRIT he will not see nor enter into the kingdom of heaven! You better listen now while you have a chance to be saved! I pray that the Lord draws you to be saved and to receive the Holy Ghost! don't dog it unless you have experienced it!
ReplyDeleteIf Acts 2:38 is insignificant, so is the rest of the book of Acts, and the book of John too. And the book of Matthew. And the book of Joel.
DeleteHow can you call yourself a Christian and criticize other people? Who are you to judge? And then, you delete people's comments that you don't like. This just ruined my morning. Matt Maddix is motivating "pentecostals" to get up off their butt and do something with their life rather than eat. Because if you look at it, most of them are overweight because they that's the only thing that isn't a sin to them is eating! But guess what? It is! It's called gluttony! He's motivating them and hes making a change. I don't see anyone else who believes in the oneness of God who is brave enough to get up and speak the truth? This made me sick. This should be a gossip website for pentecostals because I know they are good at that too. Maybe they can get the latest scoop on who wore a bracelet to church last Sunday. I don't even know how I got to this website, but I regret clicking the link. Such disappointment and I will never be back.
ReplyDeleteI have reported this blog to Blogger for cyber bullying, harassment, and defamation of character. It is so disturbing that you use God to put down and shame others. This type of site should not be allowed online.
ReplyDeleteI have reported this blog to Blogger for cyber bullying, harassment, and defamation of character. It is so disturbing that you use God to put down and shame others. This type of site should not be allowed online.
ReplyDeletei think it's important to remember that everything that is posted is our individual opinion including mine. Sadly, i've watched people put some on a higher level and then turn around and slam someone else. God loves us whether we are old, young, fat, slim, black, white or polka dotted, gay or straight. it is God's job to convict, change and heal. we, as christians are to be known by HIS love, satan is the one who comes to condemn, to steal and destroy.... in proverbs it says that the power of life and death is in the tongue, and that we are accountable for every word we speak. the scripture says we, who are more spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of meekness.... the key in this for me is ... it is done for the purpose of restoration in a spirit of meekness... otherwise, it is wise not to speak. i know i dont want my words to speak death, condemnation or judgement... because i would be judged by God with the same measurement of judgement. i am not God.... just sharing, not perfect.
ReplyDeletethe last post was a different anonymous then previously
ReplyDelete