Friday, May 14, 2010

Holy Magic Hair Update



Alright, I won't be able to post today because of a final due tonight. (maybe tomorrow?)


But in the meantime, I wanted to ring up something i just found about....Holy Magic Hair (not again!)


One of the endearing points of HMH advocates is that the idea that there is power in uncut hair can be verified in the wicca religion where the witches believe there is power in uncut hair.


Such proof can be seen in the message that is pro-HMH  that I posted under the HMH post....


Another HMH advocate posted in her blog:


Did you know that witches won't cut their hair because they try to tap into the power promised to us in 1Cor 11? Do you know why Indians used to scalp their enemies? Do you know why Nuns and Buddhist monks shave their hair? What does tar and feathering mean? Do you know who it was that first starting the hair cutting trend? What date was that? What about the hippie movement?
What significance is there when hair is found at the scene of a crime?



Daniel Alicea, the man who operates holymagichair.com, found in his research that...


"Most wiccan witches agree that there is no added or extra power in uncut hair while recognizing it is used in ritual magic...but so is eye newt, toe of frog...wool of bat and tongue of dog."


He even quotes one wiccan saying "Hair does not give you extra power and you don't lose power if it's cut."


There is a whole forum that Alicea found that sees wiccans discussing this exact topic and the conversation is eerily reminiscent at points to how we discuss HMH, but as not to offend with this matter, I won't post the link (since it was a Wiccan site). 


NOTE: I am not looking for a big conversation on this one guys. I just felt the information was too relevant not to post.

70 comments:

  1. The pic-is that you running from the inevitable tasing from bringing up this touchy topic again??

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  2. you read all too correctly into things sir

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  3. I love how witches and sons of God are to look to the same source for their power.

    Can't wait to eat toads at Sunday worship

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  4. go to #150 holy magic hair there is some good 't going on now....... And while you are talking about witches and sons of God looking to the same source for their power. Interesting how christians now are going to the most godless civilizations since time began to take their lead on body modification tattooing and piercing. The darkest jungles in Africa and the most remote rain forest one thing in common...Tattooing....I was recently out of town and friends who dont even go to church were commenting how bizarre it is that this trend is taking such a hold in the U.S. Wierd how christians will take guidance and direction from worldly trends and fashion...but rebel against any direction from the church.

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  5. Yesterday I sat behind a woman with hair like Elvira, and I texted our youth pastor my impression. He texted back, "Holy Magic Hair." Your blog is going to be trendsetting... kudos.

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  6. is rj jr backwards...

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  7. anonymous two above,

    First I'd like to point out that you are drawing attention to your posts on here, but are criticizing our advertising which is basically nonexistent?

    Second, I agree....It's revelatory how Christians can go to the world to try to do secular things....It's almost like when Christians want to go to sin, they go to the place where sin is supposed to be...in the world and other worldly cultures for the inspiration...

    Oh wait...it's not revelatory at all. Where else would a Christian go to find influences on sin? Other than the world... I would suggest that you try a little harder on your next post for creativity, though I admire the thought.

    Also, I don't care for your sense of imperialism and mentality towards the third world of Africa. Africa is the most blossoming location in the world for pentecostalism (south america a close second)....

    Christianity has gotten so big in the third world sub-saharan africa that Africans are moving to New York city to start their own churches and convert Americans!

    And these aren't rare instances. THere are now more Episcopalians in Africa than the rest of the world!

    Look down your nose at the african tribes for "tattooing" but I don't think they really care. Their probably used to the terrible stereotypes coming from americans (their sinless and helpless barbarians)...

    They are changing the world at least.

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  8. Anonymous just above my last comment,,

    No sorry, RJ is not JR backwards...At least if you are inferring that the identity of RJ is me...

    I'm not that desperate for attention...

    Though I do admire that you would consider that much thought into a conspiracy theory such as yours.

    Bestest wishes in the whole wide world,
    Joel

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  9. if you noticed I said civilizations since time began....which would exclude the current day pentecostal explosion in Africa....which I am very well aware of but thank you for bringing that up...I wouldnt want to be misleading. And just an aside....you are desperate for attention...you drag out your sentences like you have unlimited access to a thesaurus...to make sure everyone is aware of your level of education...Which I have to admit is quite impressive.....but at the same time when you post spiteful attacks with a broad brush....expect nothing but a response from people who care. You dont have to worry about me being a regular on here....your site is boring and depressing. I just thought there seems to be a vacuum of dialogue. All I have seen is a bunch of angry kids....but once again dont try and pin me with being disrespectful to Africa and S. America...when my entry clearly stated what I meant. Especially when your attacks are so needlessly arrogant, abusive , and belittling. But I am sure you were taking those things to heart ourself while you were writing them to me. I didnt consider a conspiracy theory...Just kind of a knee jerk reaction to your watch dog. mcgee or whoever he is. He was like an armed guard...lol kind of funny Best wishes to

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  10. I dont look down my nose at Africans....not at all. So next time you make an accusation like that read it carefully...Christ does and should make a difference in peoples lives. I am sure if you would visit one of the many churches that I know they are starting here...where there are healings and souls saved on the streets...I cannot say for sure, I would just assume that tattos would be something that they would discourage. You know exactly what I was talking about....when I referenced civilizations from the beginning of time....which would include Egypt...China...Rome...but it is much easier for you to be misleading...insult and attack. Anyone with any common sense would know that I was not condemning the move of God in Africa...but it does help you keep some control on your site by making something out of nothing. I didnt understand your comments about where else would christians go for influence on sin and the world but the world. Didnt you read what I said....Christians are taking there que from the most godless of civilizations period. I didnt say the Christians are sinners...I said they some consider tatooing a societal norm..some even a godly thing. I do think it is interesting how ruffled your feathers get by referring to tatooing as something that has come from godless civilizations, and yet you are ready to pounce on a preacher for teaching something you dont agree with. Just an observation. Written without eloquence and brilliance maybe thats why it is so unclear to you....Have an enjoyable week

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  11. Yeah Joel you shouldn't study so much. It intimidates the idiots and you get anonymous comments like these.

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  12. HAHA - Anonymous with the spiteful comments, what's your beef with tattoos?

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  13. Wait. "Just a bunch of angry kids?"
    How about you help and interact with intelligent conversation, and challenge ideas you believe are wrong with some rational conversation. No, just more drive-by smart alec-ness. Just like many preachers I hear these days. They have an open mic and say nothing of substance, but will take up their entire time indirectly blasting others. They say nothing of substance, but have cute little zingers. Way to go, Anon!

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  14. No not a drive by at all, as a matter of fact you are somewhat immaterial to me. I came to this website because of people who matter to me,that I go to church with and I am concerned about. that is it. You guys can debate 24/7 and you are like landscaping in someones backyard, until it involves people I love. Then and only then would I bother getting involved. But let me take this opportunity to apologize. Maybe I have seen the light. After centuries of misguided ministry, pastors filled with heresy and distorted doctrine. After decades of people begging for the simple truth...finally it has come to mankind thanks to this website and its truth troopers, I hope you dont mind me referring to you as truth troopers. Finally our sidewalks will be clean, our cities will be safe, our homes will be bastians of love and understanding, our churches will be mighty and powerful...places where God finally begins to move. All thanks to you. How it is possible that there has been such a mighty revival in Africa is completely beyond me, seeing that it has been largely dollars sacrificed from U.S. churches, and missionaries from the U.S who have sacrificed their homes and lives with their families to go to these countries to spread what they thought was truth, what a shame....but in spite of the confusion and heresy that those missionaries spread. In spite of those support dollars coming from corrupt deceitful churches and pulpits...in spite of all of this, somehow someway...God has brought about a mighty revival in Africa. The churches here in the U.S. should crumble in shame for sending forth missionaries who said their commission was to spread the truth of the gospel, and then they did nothing but spread their own dogma. It shows how mighty God is, that in spite of ourselves, He will have a mighty church. I should be thanking you for finally bringing undeniable, certifiable,absolutely pure and perfect truth. I can only imagine how mighty the power of God must be in your offices, or laptop areas. We the mislead for decades can only imagine, what it must feel like for unbridled word to flow from your hearts to your minds through your hands to your screen, then to us. the undeserving. If churches and individuals could only have a moment of the spirit you must feel, chosen to bring forth the message untainted with mans opinion, in a place where prayers, praise, supplication, worship,and fasting must take place around the clock. Finally allowing miracles and might to expose themselves to a hungry ,deprived , and sometimes imperfect people. You truth troopers are perfection personified. In you there is no confusion fallacy or wrong, it is you who have been chosen to bring the mighty and perfect truth to us.Thank you. I will do what I can to make sure Pastors or leaders, potential speakers check out their messages on this site....a spiritual snopes as it were.....in the mean time, keep the prayers and fasting going, keep the worship and supplication rising up. You could be our last and only hope.

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  15. And I am off, to many life things to do. I gave some entries, mr. mcgee (who has been surprisingly silent...what did you do, put a muzzle or leash on him?) has shown what your spirit is and who you are. You have allowed me to let you see a side that perhaps you are not concerned about...but of great concern to me and others. I saw all I needed to see in your attitudes. Personally I think you should change your purpose statement because the only way you allow humorous or sarcastic commentary is if it is coming from your side. Danke

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  16. Why don't you get involved by articulating something of substance. Nothing squelches lies like truth. So speak truth. And don't cry when you are challenged.

    No one here claims to know it all. I'm not sure where you got that. You sound like a know-it-all, but I can still smell diapers on you.

    Revival in Africa thanks to America? Where do you get this stuff from? Please, do yourself a favor and read about Pentecostalism in Africa. It may surprise you what was happening in the world prior to Azusa, and just a few short years afterward. Hint: Britain should be praised if we are hailing a nation as one to be praised for African revival. Again, read some Church History. Not to knock you, but I think you will appreciate a little more perspective.

    It seems you are thinking we must agree with all who have ever done a good deed, otherwise, we strip away their good deed. This sort of emotional logic (yes, it's an oxymoron) is disturbing. Are you hearing yourself?

    Do you think you are helping "those you love" by your insidious comments? Ironically, you've tried to don a cape on this site in general, but you've come in sporting a red spandex suit. Quite ironic if you ask me. The only one "coming to the rescue" is you.

    The humbling thing is we are wrong. You are wrong. We are all wrong. How wrong are we is the question. And knowing I am wrong does not impede searching, pursuing, thinking - it only humbles one in the progress.

    Now come back and post if you won't get in trouble.



    And how are you the judge of a poster's attitude?? Your tenor and tone is above that? Really? *Passing you a mirror*

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  17. I agree with Anonymous! Just listen to your pastor and you'll make it to heaven. If there isn't scripture and verse, that's not as important as having a bad heart and doing "what seemeth right unto a man but the end is destruction." I'll stand by my Moses and trust in him to lead me in.

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  18. Duplicate posts?

    Did anyone else get those freaky chills on this prior post? On so many levels.

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  19. Chester,

    That was me...With the duplicate posts....

    I went to go leave a comment with a link to the anons in the discussion on the initial HMH post...Except the link was bad, so I deleted it...and by I deleted it I realized I actually posted on this post (the update) (or so I thought)....but long story short, I have been compying and pasting the posts from my email (all comments get emailed to me) and from there have been doing a disastrous job at reposting stuff where and deleting the right posts....

    It should be fixed (hopefully!)

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  20. Yes Anon that would be because you yet to discuss the issue of HMH. I'm not going to get drawn into a rhetorical debate with you or people like you. You've based 90% of your comments on ad hominem. I really don't care what you thinknof me so why would I try and defend myself. You're just one of the many judgemental apo's I come across regularly.
    Discuss HMH and I'll talk. Hate on me and I'll just ignore you and keep living.

    Regards.

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  21. a very brief overview of your website. You advertise humor and sarcasm, but in reality your site is riddled with vicious attacks, comparing women who adhere to a discipline of uncut hair to witches, attacks on Bro. Stoneking, referring to a mens conference as an old fart mens conference, which right here I will say some of these men have done more in their lives then many of you will ever accomplish. They have lived Godly lives, prayed at bedsides of their children, donated untold hours and finance to support local and foreign missions,and the best you can come up with is referring to them on your lame website as an old fart mens conference. That entry was from one of your regulars. You ignore vulgarity, and tolerate people who state they are over the stuffy church thing. And that is just a few mentions. You say you dont attack but do. You condemn an anonymous post, unless they are one of your lap dogs and then there is no mention of the fact that they are under an alias or anonomous. You encourage, foster,fertilize and nurture, disrespect,disregard and disobedience. The more I thought today of one of the posts from one of your fanatics texting in church I realized...I have seen that going on.and I know for a fact that you and your small groupie are in constant texting contact with each other. So by not confronting that entry you support disobedience to a simple request, one we see in govt. buildings, hospitals, planes, and is a request from a Pastor, who has the right and authority to make this simple request,and you encourage your lapdogs and fans to disobey, keep their phones on, and beyond that sit in church and text sarcasm, insults, even taking pictures to pass them along so you have stuff to post and laugh about on your site the following week. You attacked and criticized me for not being on point with your blog topic, which I had no desire to be, you condemned me for not focusing on your discussion, yet you encourage your panel of judges, and friends to walk into church and sit there texting completely off point from any move of God, entirely not focused on worship and the word, so completely detached from what is going on ,that they wouldnt know a word from God if it hit them in the head. They sit there texting condemnation and sarcasm about someone sitting in the pew or something being said from the pulpit...YOU ARE ALL PATHETIC, IMPERTINENT,NEEDLESSLY ARROGANT, AND VENOMOUS. And by breezing right by these entries webmaster, with no comment or confrontation you are supporting what is happening, in fact some of the ridiculous entries you have complimented and championed as being strong, but attack anyone who comes at you with disagreement. One of the posts referred to you as Pastor Riley....and if I didnt have a neighbor who had a well trained dog, I might have fallen for that one, but I recognized it as just a lame rehearsed trick to get me to fall for an entry referring to you as a Pastor....now that really would be funny.You trump up the site with the number of blogs but in reality once your subract riley, the panel of judges, the lapdogs, and personal friends and an undisclosed number of aliases what are you left with? 13? I am glad I visited the site. I saw much more in a couple days than I would have ever expected. Now I dont have to say "yeah I heard about the site" I can say I know about the site and encourage people to visit and see for themselves your nonsense. I want to thank you for the quick tour. I couldnt have had better guides. And dont be too hard on mcgee....I am sure he is no worse than any of the rest of you. ciao

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  22. chester I thought we were apostolic even on this site.....am I wrong...? Why would you suggest that Britain brought about the revival....oh maybe I get it,,,,you guys dont believe that the Apostolic experience is an important step in a walk with God. You pronounce Britain....such a Godly country as being responsible for world wide evangelism. I think that would be more about colonialism....but you might not agree. The British had no choice , the church of England was it. But you think that the forced belief from Britain, is what brought about a spirtual revival in Africa. Actually christianity came to Africa in the 1st and 2nd century from Jerusalem....so read your history chester. And I dont call a forced state religion a revival.There has been no country in the history of the world that has spent more money or sent more missions than Apostolics. But I would only expect that you would be on a different page there too. I have even read a blog where I believe it might have been you,if not it was on here, and no one confronted the post. A comment was casually made about drinking, with a feeling that Apostolic teaching was on the wrong side of that issue. I would encourage you to read some history on drinking and alcohol..you would find that throughout all of history and in every civilization ,drunkeness was not tolerated....you would find that wine was not in such prevalent supply as it is today....you would find that in the 18th and 19th centuries, grain alcohol was introduced because companies then could mass produce alcohol to provide it to an excessive obsessive drunken society, with only one thing in mind....Profit. Wine is made today with one thing in mind...profit..so they make it taste incredible, they arent making a leather bag for their family. They are building billion dollar corporations off it. So the next time you think about mentioning drink in a cavalier way, you might want to consider a mother of MADD or a man who has lost his family his home his job...everything to drink. For a christian to even hint that drinking is ok is extremely insensitive to the population,and to compare drinking today to wine in the NT is like comparing Nascar to a camel ride....just thought I would throw in a little history you might want to consider.

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  23. Anonymous,

    for the love of God shorten your paragraphs. It can be very damaging to the attention span of the reader and the aesthetic of your posts....

    Also, I get around 300 visits a day on good days...47 states. 15 countries. So to think that there is a circle of friends involved here is ludicrous. The only one who comments on this blog whose number I have in my cell is Glen's (he has been a longtime friend)....I don't know anyone else outside of being facebook friends on here (unless I know some of the other commenters but they have yet to reveal their identity)

    Next point and the most important:

    I have never compared females with uncut hair to witches. Such an accusation is one of the most frustrating things I have seen come across this blog in recent memory....If you read the posts about HMH, the topic was never ever about cut/uncut hair. It was about whether there was "power" in the hair. I even condemned people who made it a "cut/uncut" issue in the comments.

    It was lee stoneking (in that video message that I posted) who brought up the witches and how they thought they had power in uncut hair, not I.

    So please seriously reflect what you are digesting from the actual posts (not the comments because that's anarchy)....

    Let me repeat: I never attacked uncut hair. You cannot find me a single quote on the actual post that actually ever does so.

    Next on tap, my pastor does not permit texting in church. SO i don't text. However, because my pastor makes it a church rule, does not mean by any means that I have a right to make it a universal ethic and judge others from other churches who text in church (especially considering their pastor might not teach such an ethic).




    Lastly, I made this quote my facebook status "YOU ARE ALL PATHETIC, IMPERTINENT,NEEDLESSLY ARROGANT, AND VENOMOUS." Thank you for the giggles.


    Flamboyantly,

    Joel

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  24. Anon,

    You can brand it however you want. I'm first a Christian. I'm also Pentecostal in practice, Apostolic in teaching. But first, a follower of Jesus.

    The "Old Farts Conference" is a quite general statement. For you to go on defending specific men and women is unnecessary. I was being dramatic with my language and I apologize, as I realize it sounds offensive. However, it was a returned jab with a picture in mind.

    You are on a rampage of random thought aren't you? Take a deep breath.... Feel better now?

    Your other indictments on the site miss the point, but it's impossible to spend 20 pages going one-by-one. Especially, since most of them are so general and lack specifics.

    Regarding Britain and Spirit Baptism in Africa, I'm obviously not referring to the Church of England. Why would you write several paragraphs on such a wild baseless assumption?? If you are curious, I'll interact with you if you want, but you from your response, that's not what you're interested in.

    Pathethic, impertinent, needlessly arrogant and venomous. Should we put that as the title of your post, sir?

    Regarding drinking, let's dialogue, if you actually care to, on a separate post about the subject. I wasn't sure if you wanted to discuss or just include that in your drive-by cherry bombs. One thing I can say up front, no one has argued for drunkenness or that Jesus followers should be drunkards. At least get that much right. I'm not sure how it's "insensitive to the population?" Last I checked MADD were against drunkenness and more specifically, drunkenness while driving. I could be wrong. But it makes sense to me. A little international travel will reveal to you many cultures that have varying attitudes about alcohol, some from moderation to abstinence. There is no such scriptural prohibition, so I suggest you acquaint yourself with Romans 14 on that. I respect your sweet, positive attitude to engage in abstinence. I think it's nobel and an "okay thing."

    I do hope you come back. Chime in. Shorter parapgraphs and let's have some real discussion. Maybe you do have a perspective I can learn from. So far, you haven't shared it.

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  25. "...which right here I will say some of these men have done more in their lives then many of you will ever accomplish."

    Which men? And who are you directing this to? Just shotting from your hips? Engaging and baiting a little "my preacher is better than your preacher" competition?

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  26. This is to the anonmys poster


    "They are building billion dollar corporations off it."

    Hey Anon. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Any product sold in today's economy is part of the economic system where it is branded, marketed, distributed and sold for profit. Your point?

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  27. Is this the same guy trying to "help someone he loves?" You're still here? *cue super hero music*

    I'd just stop. You are only painting a worse picture. If your loved one reads this they will just see you as an angry mad man.

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  28. A basic rule in hermeneutics is that we should not prooftext by isolating one or two scriptures/ passages. In this case proponents of HMH have no biblical witness for said teaching and so appealing to the occult provides “substance” to their arguments. Like Rev. Jan Jasinski, Rev. Raymond Woodward also makes a similar appellation to the practices of witchcraft in his bible study entitled, Biblical Studies in Practical Holiness“.

    In Acts 16, we find Paul and his company being followed by a slave girl possessed by a spirit of divination that made money for her owners through fortune telling. For days she cried out, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.”

    While true, it annoyed Paul to no end(probably because it was not of her own free will and was rooted in witchcraft). So he cast the spirit out in the name of Jesus.

    Notice Paul could have appealed to the seemingly “truthful” declarations of this “witch”, yet does not … This should provide precedence in this matter. Is this really how one wants to prove a God-given “revelation” in the absence of biblical authority?

    Moreover, there is mounting evidence coming from those involved in the occult realm and testimony of former witches that contradict such claims.

    I highly suggest that all UPCIers read Dan Segraves November 2009 article "A Plea for Caution", in the Herald, as he touches on the danger of appealing to the occult while being dogmatic about this erroneous interpretation.

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  29. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    An ad hominem, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument toward the person"), is an attempt to persuade which links the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise. The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy.
    ______________________________

    One last thing I'd like to address, Joel and I discussed last night, is the classic apo attempt to dismiss the people they disagree with without addressing their concerns, claims, etc.
    When people leave churches because of erroneous teaching, bad leadership, spiritual abuse, etc, rather than address the problem they are often dismissed as "blocking revival" or the pastor says he "prayed them out". (The funny thing is these churches usually shrink into a cocoon of self indulgence, yet live in denial about why the masses left)
    But anyway, that's another topic. The bottom line is that rather than address what a segment has to say Apo's write them off prematurely.
    "They're charismatic" or "they just don't want to make sacrifices" or "we're jealous of what they have so we're going to hate on them because we're not that talented" (maybe not that last one out loud, whoopsies!)
    I've seen a lot of attacks on the two HMH posts.. A couple people tried to address the issue after we repeatedly said they weren't, but did a poor job. Joel was condemned for use of knowledge because they'd rather point their finger than use it to turn a page.

    So go ahead and keep condemning Joel without ever addressing the material, but you're guilty of one of the oldest logical fallacies in civilization.

    Also, to the anonymous poster who said he got involved because the blog affected someone he loves: We see it a little differently. What you're saying is that someone you know grew up believing something they didn't necessarily understand fully, and by reading the blog they were exposed to a more full circle scale of information that made them re-think what they had been spoon fed. That's the goal. Sure people get confused when you tell them what they believe is based in erroneous study, that's the pain of growth. Saying "You're affecting my loved ones!!!" amounts to us as "You made my loved one think!!"

    Regards.

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  30. have been too busy to come on and chime in....In response to long paragraphs being damaging....you are damaged goods already. And what would the oldest logical fallicy be mr. mcgee.? And no you are wrong.in regards to my love and concern for a couple people who have visited here...once again you can not know what is in a persons head. It is obvious that with your self inflated egos and dillusions of granduer, you would like to believe that you made a loved one think. But you guys arent the only one around with two active brain cells. My first entry stated that your discussions and arguments have been going on for decades. And you guys think that the world has been put on hold from hearing the truth until you ingrates showed up to straighten everyone out>? That is the the biggest piece of humor I have heard on here....P.S. Jake whoever you are....keep up the good work...but dont waste too much time with them. They have an agenda, and arent planning on listening to anyone. As for me...coming back to visit....it will be seldom. Although I am sure you have loved my entries...this is the most activity your site has seen in a long time I ....and that isnt anything I would want to be part of....I will drop by once in a while, and as I did before, just posting in an inappropriate blog ...I wont take time to weed through the garbage. I will just place it in the first comment box I come to.

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  31. Oh dear God do you not read anything?!

    LOGICAL FALLACY - ATTEMPTING TO DISCREDIT AN ARGUMENT OR THEORY BASED ON DISCREDITING WHO WROTE IT, CAME UP WITH IT OR DISCOVERED IT!

    You have done nothing but attack PEOPLE, not INFORMATION!
    If we're wrong then tell us why! Not by attacking our character, motives, or whatever else you think is wrong with us, but the information itself! You have been asked REPEATEDLY to do this yet REFUSE. This leads me to believe you do not study and are incapable of using hermeneutics, exegesis and contextual study.
    Should you reply to this please do so without another attack and attempt to dissect the information originally presented.
    Until this point you've proved nothing.

    This post was about one thing: Holy. Magic. Hair.
    Not me, not Joel, not liberal vs conservative, not how old and "proved" the "men of God" who perpetuated the doctrine are, not your opinion on what's going on with the movement, not your opinion of us.
    Simply. Holy. Magic. Hair.
    Discuss that or don't discuss anything.

    And learn this term and remember it: AD HOMINEM.
    I will post this link everytime you use the tactic:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

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  32. HAHAHAHAHAAHA This anonymous guy is killing me. Exhibit A.

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  33. glen you are too funny...is there anything else going on in your life besides this site???? you should get a promotion...and chester....you guys are too much fun....lol....and pastor joel....when you mentioned not having your cell phone on during service,...good boy. But if you had confronted the blog applauding your site after texting his youth pastor during service...making fun of someone....and not just jumping on me or anyone else that disagrees with you....there might be a little legitimacy to and consistency to your site. However when you let a blog like that go by without mentioning that there are so many things wrong with that sentence.....you create exactly what I am confronting you about....As long as they agree with you....everything is fine...even if the means are a little twisted....the ends justify them. I dont care what you say about not condemning anyone, by calling your hair issue...heresy you are calling Bro. Stoneking a heritic. Face it bitter kidders.....you are a judgemental, mean spirited, tribe.

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  34. Is Joel now the adjudicator over all that funny guy anon thinks is wrong?

    Regarding the "Hair"asey. Say what you will. That's what it is. You may say it's implied that Joel thinks LS is a heretic, but I certainly didn't see him make that statement. Some of us may feel that way, but we are just one great big choir anyway! lol

    "Face it bitter kidders... you are a judgmental, mean spirited, tribe."

    Post #100 by you without any substance, but full of personal attacks. It's ironic what you call, in general, the people that post on here. Listen to yourself! lol

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  35. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

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  36. Chester thank you for acknowledging that your reference to the mens conference was perhaps inappropriate. I was not there, but I would suggest some of you get the cd of Bro. Mooneys message. I came to this site to accomplish a few things, find out what your heads and spirits were like. I discovered you were a more than just a little hot headed, you gave anyone who agreed with you, or were one of your fans, a free pass to say or post anything regardless of how objectionable or out of line it was....with no confrontation...But when it came to anyone who disagreed with you and didnt care what you thought, you unleashed your abusive entries, showing completely who you were. How dare one come on to our site and disagree.in fact one told me to stay off and find another place. Actually in that regard I saw more than I had thought I would. But now after I have had my little adventure and discovery time, I will explain to you what I put in many of my entries from the very first post. I stated that you were guilty of the very same thing you were accusing others of. I admit that before I explained it... I wanted to have a little fun, and see how my humor and sarcasm went over as I was under the impression that humor and sarcasm were your purpose. My apologies that you dont find me as funny as the rest of you are. Here is where the truth lies. No Apostolic minister I have ever heard, or any church I have ever been in, believes in majic. I dont care how you explain your acronym...whether it is sarcasm or humor or whatever. By the marriage of the two terms holy and majic....you propagated a total fallacy, that is not my problem, it is yours.When it comes to hair, I know for a fact many of your followers disagree with just the basis of haircutting, not even delving into your holy majic nonsense and that is there perogative. But on a subject so sensitive so basic to core Apostolic teaching,(referring to haircutting only) I would think that there would be a little respect and regard when approaching it. I think the NT refers to the danger of offending even the least of the brethern....but that doesnt register with you. You named this teaching heresy, thereby labeling Bro. Stoneking a heretic. At the very least your blog title is misleading, but more probable it is a blatant lie, holy and majic, never go together. And if it is a lie...it is heresy....and if you are pedaling heresy.....you are by definition a heretic.There it is plain and simple..I told you, that you were guilty of the same thing you were accusing others of..and I am sure you wont get it. You open a blog with a blatant bold faced lie as a title...to grab attention. You wanted to ruffle feathers, push disrespect...and mislead people with your blog title. If a man or woman believes that God annoints there lives, protects them, and keeps them because of certain disciplines...why should that concern you ,what is that to you....But when you post a lie...holy majic hair,,,,,you have completely negated anything that follows. So the whole problem lies right here on this site...before I ever saw the first line. None of you gave a moments concern to how disrespectful it was. Closing I would mention, while I respect your pursuit of higher education, the flinging of terms best absorbed in the classroom, sometimes lose there allure in the real world. Listen to a good speaker, he is not as focused on using his new word for the day...as whether the people he is speaking to are at ease, comfortable, and understanding.

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  37. And Chester thanks for your corrections, but really I know that most of you guys disagree with the Apostolic experience and post it here on this site. In regards to alcohol...you are missing my point....read about it...The industry in the 18th century started using grain alcohol to mass produce...and push excessive consumption. When you live in a time and society that pushes a product with great advertising and plentious supply, I would think that any christian would opt on the side of caution, rather than endorse a practice that might become a stumbling block to any weak brother or sister. Thats the thing with you guys, you have no problem taking direction and lead from the world, but you are quite the opposite when the church would give guidance. I guess it is a difference of core character. I dont blindly take anyones word, but I do believe in Pastors ,that they are there for a reason,to guide a people through the perils of current day issues. The most of you appear to be opposed to that.

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  38. Anonymous, word up and a fist pound!

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  39. also, anonymous, you mentioned that we are no different than that which we criticize. I think this is a very fair assessment. One which i aptly agree...

    I think the difference is, at least for myself, that I never make my opinions out to be the Word of God. I am wrong at many things (although I think I am right) and my opinion about things will change more times than I will ever be comfortable with throughout my life...While one poster called me "pastor Joel" in complete sarcasm, it is in no way the position that I am claiming. This is the internet....where voice lives quite free and opinions are more common than the gallons of oil in the Gulf of Mexico right not. I am glad you visited the blog to give it a fair shake and then came to the conclusions you did....

    Of course I want you to agree with me, but what is more important is that you have an opinion at all and are fighting tooth and nail for what you think truth is.

    I guess, my question is, why do we not take the skepticism by which we utilize here and elsewhere on the internet and allow it in the world in which we live. And thus every phrase, every preaching point, every line we hear on the radio and run that through the same gamut of skepticism? It's good a good thing that you believe in pastors. As do I. But is their word immune from inspection?

    Rather I loudly would say nay! they like you, are men. And we must not forget that. If they are found to have a misstep or two in their sermons, does this take away from Him as our trusted authority? Absolutely not....But it just doesn't allow us to confuse our pastor's perspective as God's perspective....

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  40. ANONYMOUS POSTED:
    "Chester thank you for acknowledging that your reference to the mens conference was perhaps inappropriate. I was not there, but I would suggest some of you get the cd of Bro. Mooneys message."

    You must have skipped over my apology and didn't really read it. It was a general remark with no specific conference in mind. For you to proceed talking about Bro. Mooney shows me that you were perhaps quite defensive from the start.

    Second, none of us have allegiance to the other. If you're frustrated about getting blasted from others, maybe it's how you've disagreed. In reality, you've done nothing but name -call, assign motives and throw words around. You engaged in ad hominems. Ever stop to think that's maybe we you "don't feel welcomed?" But I guess it's easier to feel like a victim.

    Your reference to Romans 14 deserves more treatment. I suggest you read it tonight in its entirety. Maybe try reading it out of the King's English and come back and let's go for it and have a chat about it. Deal?

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  41. I love this:

    "I'm just playing a game on here and stirring things up."

    Later..

    "I don't get why no one on here likes me. You have your own clique and only high five those you like."

    1-800-GETACLUE

    It's TOLL FREE, give it a shot.

    And yes, I do only engage those I disagree with. That has been Joel, Glen, you... anyone. I've just found PLENTY to disagree with you about. It's not really rocket science. So put away the victim complex and pull up a chair with the grown-ups.

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  42. Just one simple request glen and chester, and the majority of the rest of you. Why dont you be honest with your readers and let them know what you really think. You are against the whole discipline of uncut hair. Holy majic was just an easy brick for you to pull out of the wall. But your intention is against any discipline on uncut hair. And you wont stop there....that is the whole I love jean skirts campaign too. Make something look a little silly and foolish then tear it down. You have no intention of stopping at hair, you will go after any holiness standard or discipline of separation the church has. I know who many of you are, I know how you talk, I know who you hang with. And your tongues have wagged far and wide. Your mindset is against just about every holiness standard the church teaches and you should just be frank and let the reader know, that is where you are headed. If you could have it your way, (which you wont) eventually what used to be an Apostolic movement would look and sound not much unlike yourselves,and following any worldly fashion trend,or anything they feel is right, with no separation from the world taught , believed ,or lived. Odd that your answer to living a life for Christ today in the evil warring world we live in, is to look, act, and be more like them. I realize it is probably much easier to attack church teaching and increase your numbers by convincing people they dont have to live a certain discipline, they can lighten up and look more like the world. Take a life committed to Christ and the church, and convince them there is an easier way...thats not as tough as going into the streets and winning the lost, starting from scratch. Keep up the brave and noble work....I am confident that Christ has a reward for you

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  43. For me personally - no I don't believe it's wrong to cut your hair.

    HOWEVER -

    Joel subscribes to the view that 1 Corinthians 11 means that women should wear an additional covering, WITH their hair. Which is an even more conservative view than the UPC one on hair.

    Joel has voiced repeatedly to me his frustration with the fact that some readers can't separate the HMH Debate from the Cut vs Uncut debate.

    My mother doesn't cut her hair, and she never has, BUT she does not believe that there is special angelic powers or protection because of it (aka HMH).

    It is neither Joel's nor my goal to convince anyone to cut their hair. I believe 1 Corinthians 11 is somewhat ambiguous. If you'd like to interpret it to mean you shouldn't cut your hair then by all means don't. It COULD mean that. I don't believe it does but I'm not 100% sure in my stance either.
    The goal is simply to get people to understand that not cutting it will not result in some special favortism.
    If girls don't want to cut their hair because of 1 Corinthians 11 then I respect that. If they think there are angels in or around their hair - that I don't respect.

    Does that clear anything up?
    I realize most of my posts have been fiery but this one isn't. It probably should be said just so everyone knows where we stand.

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  44. Yeah anonymous,

    Like Glen your above comment is goes in the hall of fame of some of the most preposterous remarks on the blog...

    If you think attacking holy magic hair is a subversive way to get at uncut hair then you are dead wrong. There is an infinite difference between one falling an issue out of obedience and someone else folloging an issue out of a desire to have supernatural protection above and beyond that which is offered in the blood.

    And please don't tell me what I think about hair. As Glen mentioned my view is much more conservative than most people that I know. I literally know of one guy who subscribes do my view.

    Please stop, it's annoying when I find people telling me what I think without ever asking me.

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  45. Honest? What have I hid? I don't agree with the UPC interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11, and I don't see it even as a remote possibility. Neither do I have a 100% firm position on what exactly was going on in Corinth. I have my ideas.

    However, let's let others be honest: HMH is postured as a logical next-step, grasping-for-straws, attempt to validate uncut hair. By making it something of spiritual power.

    You haven't the faintest idea what I personally believe about sanctification, Christian living, etc, so please don't pretend. Don't you see your trend? Log in and go on personal rants. You are 0 for 20 with actually stepping up with anything of substance. Motivation attacking is popular probably in your culture. It's how you get people away from the issues. Just attack the person, assign a motive and dismiss their question. It's old. Most are catching on. You can live under a rock, and in that game all you want. It's your right. I have much confidence that others are taking their relationship with God and their exhortation to "rightly handle" truth (2 Tim 2:15) quite serious. And they won't be intimidated by you or anyone else. So either acknowledge their questions or move on. Then again, you can stick around too. You are serving as a great example of the types of attitudes and inability to discuss issues that people like myself point to often.

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  46. of cours riley follows a discipline of an additional head covering, he's jew. Interesting story and every word true. When I wasnt in church I lived out east in a very orthodox, hasidic jew area. Right nearby was an incredible jewish deli, a convenience store, and a hair salon, and not far from one of the few cleansing pools in the area.

    We would occassionally witness the most amazing transformation while having a bowl of matzo. An ortho or hasidic would walk into the salon, dressed in a jean skirt to the ankles, turtleneck to the chin and sleeves to the wrist, wearing military like shoes, with a headscarf, unless she had been shopping the avenue, maybe wearing a 400 dollar javits hat, and carrying a big box. Within 45 minutes this same women would walk out in the same clothes and boots....but she would be in midnite makeup and what we referred to as hooker hair. Seems the rabbis and orthos approved the dolly parton wigged out look as kosher, and a legitimate headcovering. It was such an amazing dichotomy.

    Same location just next door at the convenience store, the orthos and hasids were upset with the store owner because he refused to remove the non-kosher product from the store during Passover. One year they confronted him and said if you dont remove the non kosher we will not patronize your store then or throughout the year.They all talked it over and came up with a solution that the customers, the rabbi, the store owner, and the black stock man (who was also the janitor) could live with.

    An attorney wrote up a contract that they used for years, that just before Passover began the store owner sold the store and its contents to the black employee that had been with him for years for one dollar.
    And just after Passover ended, the sale reverted back to the original owner.

    By doing this the store owner could keep the non kosher in place, and continue selling it during Passover, and naturally still make the profit.

    Did the black employee get a raise....no, did he earn any of the profit from the sale of goods during Passover....no. But it was a solution that they could all live with and their was peace and continuity in a very touchy situation.

    But back to what I was starting in the beginning. Maybe it would help everyone and clear things up if you would state the Apostolic disciplines that you do approve of i.e. uncut hair, movies, drinking, makeup, mens apparal,jewelry...etc,,,,,the basics. I will completely understand if you dont feel comfortable going in that direction, just wondered if you would be keen to the suggestion.....mazel tov

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  47. anon,

    I am assuming you know me personally, you know that I am a Jew (unless I mentioned it on here in the past?)...and very interesting stories about your time out East in your experience with the Jews

    But I assure you my second covering stance is really not based in anything of Judaism, but really firmly relied in when going into the Greek of chapter 11 itself... and as for the second covering itself I have no conclusive view on what exactly that covering is (some possibilities: veil (although I doubt it), hair done up in a formal way, or a cloth on the head). I honestly don't know. If you wanted a fuller explanation, I could e-mail you (although I am not sure that is what you are looking for)...

    As to your question about making known my stances...

    It is a tempting venture, but it really has been a priority of this site to not comment directly on such things. I know this is weird considering the discussion over HMH but I really do not believe HMH to be an issue over apostolic disciplines. And I didn't really expect this much heat regarding it....

    I can tell you three things though:

    -I define holiness as the dying to self. Essentially trying to imitate the cross in our entire life. I know any atheist can imitate much of our Christian walk (having a good moral ethic, wearing modest clothing), but I know such a death as that of the cross is completely foreign to any non-Christian and is of no use to the atheist. And it is by the cross that we are then separated. And from this separation is birthed our holiness in manor here on earth. Ultimately, I do not think the holiness advocated by the UPC is enough. It is a start, but I fear that apostolic disciplines are being confused for the whole song and dance of holiness. Rather, we must take what we have of our holiness and build on it, separating ourselves from our prideful and selfish nature until we find ourselves so low in the ground of humility that we are at eye view of the ant. Holiness is not just external disciplines, or even a matter of cleaning the inward to let the outward shine. It is so much more. And we must not sell the holiness that we must be trying and trying again to die to ourselves and be servants to even the least of man in exchange for a few external, easy to apply disciplines. Note, this is not a criticism whatsoever against the disciplines themselves, but rather a declaration that this is just one fraction of the whole reality of holiness, which is far scarier to our flesh than asking girls to wear a skirt to school everyday.

    Secondly, I believe in all scripture as being the Word of God, and thus do not believe women should have embroidered hair with Gold, should not talk in church, nor teach and can only be saved by child bearing (I Timothy 2:9-15).

    Thirdly, and I tell you this out of complete confidence anonymous, but out of complete innocence, ignorance and ultimately a lack of due diligence I accidentally tried on a female pair of jeans today at a store. I laughed. And then I wondered if I had just sinned. Because they were pants though which is technically male apparel. I am literally in a kind crisis over this.

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  48. Couple things in your last post completely ridiculous and deceitful, no intention of telling what you oppose and thinking you sinned putting on womens pants.

    Anyone would know that you are in complete control of this site. With the exception of myself and a few others, everything is pretty much planned. You push the agenda,you name the subject matter, and you have your goon squad do the dirty work. Then occassionally you play good cop, bad cop and come in and clean up the mess. You even told mcgee to stay off for a while.So for any readers that might be fooled...riley, pushes every subject matter.

    If there are any readers here who dont know who you are, you are the one that would be sitting, detached, completely out of touch with Gods move in any large service you are in. The urban grunge look, sitting on the outskirts, dissecting everything that is going on, hoping to find something you can mock in your next blog.

    Why, would he do all this...sow this discord, control such divisive subject matter, all while attending our school, the Urshan Graduate School of Theology. I mean after all...isnt this the pinnacle of Apostolic teaching, faith, and discipline. Why in the world would someone so opposed to what Apostolics believe, attend the standard bearer of schools, why wouldnt he go someplace more in line with his beliefs>?

    Anyone who enrolls in a Bible based school knows that there is an entry application,,,and you are always asked the things you are involved with, and required at UGST. Oooops you must have forgotten to include in your application the only thing you are involved in, and that you are the creator of a website in complete controversy to the things you are paying to learn. Dont you think that is important information for both your readers and the school you attend.?

    Now, you can tell the readers ,that is why you need glen and mcgee. You have to appear impartial, because of your aspirations of graduating from a school, you have no commonality with.

    Once you finish your schooling, you can be the Jew, who converted to Apostolic christianity...attended their most elite school, only to come out the other end waving your diploma and announcing to your followers that you completed and oppose everything they teach, hoping this makes you more credible. But the real fact is..you are already opposed to the major doctrines of this faith.

    You are the one on this site riley, that is consistently deceitful, shady, and not much what you appear to be. If you wanted to just follow your own beliefs fine.....but instead you create a site, that is completely divisive and destructive.and deceitful..effecting people you arent even aware of, doing everything you can to pull people away from what they have been taught and believe. And if you havent noticed....once anyone comes in close contact with you, if they stay in church , they not only oppose discipline, but they become completely uninvolved. But the sad fact is some of them dont stay in church, and that is just fine with you.

    It is time to let the facts be known. Let the readers and your school know that you disagree with most Apostolic teachings and disciplines, while attending UGST. It is time you let the people know that you have meetings where you plan the new blogs with your squad. You control the content.....doing it all yet pretending to be completely impartial. At least if you would be honest and upfront in this matter, the school you are attending to get a degree, that you dont need, nor deserve, would be better prepared with the aftermath. And if you would be forthright in your opposition to Apostolic teachings, instead of people falling for the nonsense that it is all in humor and jest, and that you are Apostolic to a fault, they would know the truth, and thereby able to make a more informed decision, in some very crucial matters.

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  49. Isnt that why you dont post your name, but a picture stating me,...on your site.....you post the contributors as only Joel....so the school has no follow up to what you are creator of.? this is the mission statement you accepted when you enrolled in UGST...The mission of the Urshan Graduate School of Theology shall be to provide training, development, advanced studies, and a research center for men and women of the Apostolic faith worldwide to further them for Christian service.


    The Urshan Graduate School of Theology will serve the United Pentecostal Church International and the Apostolic movement by providing training and individual leadership development for preachers, teachers, pastors, missionaries, chaplains, and various specialized ministries.

    In order to effectively discharge these responsibilities, the objectives are:

    To develop men and women who are able to effectively evangelize those who do not know Jesus Christ, and who are prepared to disciple saints through their teaching, counseling and caring

    To cultivate a spiritual environment to further develop individuals of integrity, who will integrate into their lives moral, spiritual, intellectual, and emotional wholeness

    To embrace the biblical mandate for global mission, fostering a burden without limitation in culture, gender, or ethnicity

    To serve as a center for graduate and continuing education through on-campus and distance-learning opportunities

    To serve as a scholarly resource for the exploration and proclamation of the apostolic faith

    To proactively explore the needs of an ever-changing world, working to develop innovative ministries that effectively proclaim the gospel while preserving apostolic doctrine and practice for future generations

    you represent a dispicable deceit in the world, you have done a snow job on your school, on your readers, on parents and Apostolic christians. Any parent concerned about the type people their children associate with should be well advised.

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  50. I only wish I was half as smart as made me out to be in that comment...

    Never has there been a meeting about posts with other contributors.

    There is no conspiracy theory going on here either ,

    There is no plan.

    As of this minute, I have one post specifically planned this week. Nothing past that. If you knew me personally, I really have no organizational skills at all. I don't know what i will be doing tomorrow. And especially don't have a "master plan" that knows what I will be posting next month. You really are focusing on holy magic hair way too much fella. There are 154 other posts on here to take into consideration, and none of them have an agenda beyond it either. I suggest you take your conspiracy theories elsewhere. The 9-11 one seems to never grow old.

    You stated, "If there are any readers here who dont know who you are, you are the one that would be sitting, detached, completely out of touch with Gods move in any large service you are in. The urban grunge look, sitting on the outskirts, dissecting everything that is going on, hoping to find something you can mock in your next blog."

    I literally LOLed when I read this. Like where are you getting this stuff? Why are your thoughts so much obsessed with me that you have an entire character drawn out of who I am in church....It sounds like the third grader who makes fun of the girl he has a crush on to hide his feelings if you ask me. Which if you are a guy who is obsessed with me this much, I just want to let you know that I am not into that kind of thing. If you are a girl, email me...maybe we can work something out.

    And as for the actual accusation of my church behavior, I will give you this much: I could not find one thing of your accusation that I would say is true. My worship is not the most excessive in the church (i am quite the worshiping introvert), but outside of that none of those things are true. So go back to the drawing board of what you want me to be in your dreams. And for the record, most of the ideas for posts come from suggestions, and those not from suggestions come from me literally sitting on the can....

    I think that really tells you how seriously I intended this blog to be.

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  51. As to my master plan of going to UGST and not believing any of it so I can brag about it after the fact....You really think I would spend roughly $20,000 in my 3 years at UGST just to declare that famous line? Come on, at least give me more credit in my intelligence than that.

    And as for UGST....I don't know what to say. I love that place. I love the professors. I love the freedom I have to ask questions and study my little heart out. I love the Christocentrism of the place. It is UGST and the professors therein that have me staying here. They give me hope. (and by hope I do not mean some imaginary "overhaul of the system"). They give me hope rather in many ways, but one of them is that they have made it comfortable for me to question and be cerebral in my thinking of Christianity. It was something I had never thought was possible. And I guess my naivety in the recent month or so was that like we do at UGST, people can civilly hold discussion and disagree without making personal and slanderous accusations. And that was my ultimate bad. Apparently we need more time before that can fully happen....

    But of course once again anon, you prove me wrong. And I stand corrected before you as you make an entire post (two comments actually) that does nothing but participate in allegations and slander towards me, and somehow fails to make one point about the material presented up for discussion.

    Two other points...Firstly...if you must really know (as you seem to have a strange fetish for trying to imagine who I am and what I think)....

    I do not wear shorts. I cut my hair (but I am a boy). I do not wear skirts. I do not wear make up (although one time I let a girl pluck my eyebrows). I do not wear jewelery. I do not go to movie theaters....I think that covers about all of it right?

    Oh wait this may be more specifically what you're looking for... I'm a scorpio. I like to read. I can't stand romantic comedies or action adventure movies. My dream date is to a baseball game. My hygiene is not the best, but I don't think it's intolerable. I hate shopping, and I don't care for girls who have a fascination with materialistic things. I also like dressing like a 60 year old man.

    Secondly, I highly suggest a reading of the following verses (I Corinthians 4:3-5) in regards to judging the motivations and works of another Christian-

    "I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."

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  52. Categorize to marginalize .... attack the messenger but never confront the message. Yawn, anonymous your tactic is old, stale and quite frankly, unApostolic.

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  53. Attempt number 1,234 to personally discredit and attack the person, and avoid the subject.

    The hit men are out. Look out Joel.

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  54. I never claimed a conspiracy theory...you probably arent that bright, however I may have given you an idea.

    No obsession here, dont know you, dont want to know you...have had an occassion to meet a couple of your lapdogs, and they established a very low level of expectation. And to be honest with you...I have to applaud such a lofty opinion of yourself. I dont know you ,but where it comes from I would have no idea.....maybe we should all sit up and take notice....If you can feel that good about yourself, there is hope for anyone.

    You spent how many paragraphs dribbling nonsense about not wearing skirts, jewelry, you cut your hair..etc...and then enumerating your character disorders and lack of personal hygiene. Thats a sign of someone who doesnt want to or cannot answer confrontations or questions.

    Add to that list of questions for your personal consumption....one more question...can you name one....just one person who has had the misfortune of close contact with you, that is more committed, more on fire, more involved, in their churches..than before they made your aquaintance..One...just one.

    I will say one more time slowly for your lapdogs who are stuck on the mantra, "attack the messenger not the message."
    I h a v e n o intention of debating your attacks against Apostolic churches individually, just your hateful, venomous attack mode in general.

    And to those readers who you would hope to minimize the appearance of opposition. You and I both know that there are thousands of parents, Pastors, young people, incredible, involved christians who would, or have found this site extremely offensive and out of touch. And in the words of one of the schools officials ..."the site is very troubling, extremely anti Apostolic, and of great concern.

    As for myself and many others...you will have to remind me this fall that I had ever visited this site. This is a little blip in what is and has been a rich and wonderful life. As for you....I am sure we will still be able to find you lurking in the shadows of Gods move, a glazed detached look on your face, watching and listening for anything that you would be able to lable as heresy or mock on your site.

    If you could drum up enough interest it could almost make a realty show......HUNTING FOR HERESY....but even preparation H would require more than a couple dozen crazed fans to justify sponsoring the nonsense.

    In the big picture of Gods move in these times, I know you feel your mocking of a fall back prayer is of utmost importance, however most look at it as just petty personal attacks,,,,you know the kind that you accuse others of making on here.....You have built a whole website making personal attacks. You should all be so proud of your involvement in matters so pertinent to helping to draw the world to the salvation that Christ brings.

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  55. This is totally off the subject, and I'm sorry if this seems snide . . . it's not meant to be, but I couldn't help myself. Does anyone else see a strong correlation between anonymous comments and frequent misspellings? As an English major, it's distressing. Perhaps I should take the advice given to me when I'm facing a distressing situation and I ask for advice from those stronger in the Lord than myself and "pray about it."

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  56. chantell....thanks for the corrections, but didnt know we were having a spelling bee....especially after riley used the term ladder instead of latter.....lol.....but I would only expect one of his lapdogs to notice my misspellings and overlook others. Maybe you should just prey about it.

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  57. oh you already have.

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  58. Annoying, I mean Anonymous Quoted: "one more question...can you name one....just one person who has had the misfortune of close contact with you, that is more committed, more on fire, more involved, in their churches..than before they made your aquaintance..One...just one."

    I'm not sure that's even the question. And for those who ended up wresting through questions, find them in a few years when they rid themselves of peers like you. I, for one, have coincidentally found my faith in Jesus more reassured in the last year. It just so happens that I've been following this blog that long too. Maybe it's all to Joel's credit *smirk*

    A whole website on personal attacks? Isn't that an ironic accusation. Unfortunately, you haven't read the purpose statement of the blog, don't understand satire or are just doing what you do best, still trying to win an argument that none of us know what it really is. The focus of this website is not an evangelism tool, as far as I'm aware. The purpose of you sitting on the stool isn't evangelism either. Isn't it neat how different things we do have different purposes?

    Now, it may just happen, that some visiting here find themselves, through the humor, stopping to wonder about the occassional contradictions they notice. They will find an answer for themselves, or at least a response they are comfortable with it. If that's what your fearful of, I can certainly understand.

    As for yourself and "many others," thanks for hanging out with us regulars. What a treat! Maybe the site will lose all its followership because of your graceful interactions.

    Really, you show such an insecurity, and even fear that is quite absurd. Do what you do best, go ban your friends, church members, students from viewing the site and be done with it. Or continue your rampage and hope someone thinks you sound cool. So far you sound quite juvenile.

    Really, this says plenty for me:

    "I h a v e n o intention of debating your attacks against Apostolic churches--- just your hateful, venomous attack mode in general."

    Get some new skin that's not so thin, and try to find a mirror sometime today.

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  59. Benji the LapdogMay 24, 2010 at 1:02 PM

    Hey Anonymous!
    I know you're trying to be the "Warrior for Truth" by attacking the "false prophets" (whom you don't know) on a general site that more often than not is a humor site, but do you realize you are generating more attention? Heck, JR, what's the stats in the last week? I have to think Anonymous has pushed interest even more.

    I love your attention and carefulness in calling anyone that disagrees with you on this site a lapdog. Probably unlike where you come from, dissenting opinions are welcome. So whose lap are you laying your head in? Reverend who? Yeah, let's talk about "lap dogs" shall we.

    We'd actually hear you out as well, except your remarks have no opportunity for interaction. They are as broad as can be, and just silly little rants.

    I don't know JR. Haven't met him personally. Anyone that signs on here and tells you to "get lost" isn't involved in a conspiracy against some unknown kid behind a computer. They are reacting to your inflammatory, broad and ridiculous remarks.

    Should you decide to actually interact with anyone on here (and to SAL's credit, they are actually not deleting your ridiculous postings (unlike some other blogs/forums/websites where dissenting opinions of any nature are deleted, why don't you tell us what you believe.

    We get it. You don't appreciate the humor. You think JR is an undercover son of Satan set out to destroy the world *cue evil music*. So tell us what you believe. Enlighten all of us. Please.

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  60. Joel, maybe you should do a meet-and-greet with your UGST fellows? Appears one of them enjoys stalking you.

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  61. I am not absolutely sure but I believe that riley posted an entry that he would be unable to delete a post even if he tried.....you might want to check that out and let the readers know the facts.....can posts be deleted or not.

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  62. Firstly, anonymous, yes i can delete comments. I originally did it for a few comments way back in the day, but have since adapted a more laissez-faire policy in hopes garner more discussion.

    Secondly, chester, I hope the person is not a UGST student. I couldn't imagine it being so. As can be imagined there is much disagreement about various issues amongst the UGST body, but I don't think any of us possess any ill-will towards each other. As we do a decent job to try to be as honest as possible as to follow as Socrates said "to follow the argument wherever it may lead." I do not think they claimed to be a UGST student either. From what I can tell (may be I am reading it wrong), the person Facebook stalked me and then saw my school listed as Urshan.

    Anonymous, one last thing...As one of the commenters said above...the purpose of the blog is far from trying to engage in a contest of who can throw a football further than who else. Therefore bragging about one's spirituality or their accomplishments has really no place in here.

    I think there is definitely some unfortunate consequences about this. One for instance would be the treatment Lee Stoneking got on the blog. I did not mean to interrogate him whatsoever. it was some material that was under the spotlight. Lee Stoneking has done more for the kingdom than I could ever dream of for myself. But just like we follow the material that one presents (and not the person), it was the material that was under review. Therefore I do not think the good or the bad of Stoneking's character really has any bearing of the message.

    Now, follow this to it's ends...You asked "who have I met who has been positively affected by me?"

    By the same logic above, my accomplishments in the Kingdom of God really have no bearing on the messages that are presented on this site. Therefore I do not think it necessary to justify my acts of righteousness in order to be heard (mind you people visit this site by choice). Same thing goes with declaring what I believe on various standards presented on this site. What does that have to do with anything?

    But know this anonymous....I could point you to many a people who have participated in various bible studies with me that would easily say that they were encouraged at the various least at the discussions that were pursued. This is no claim to be braggadocios whatsoever. Because I know without a doubt it was not me who was doing the edifying (for I am but dust), but rather Christ within me. So I really do hate claiming any kind of "positive" influence to others. But here I am up against the corner with another brother accusing me of my lack of fruit. And for that I assure you I could show you the results (if you want specifics, but yet once again you do not want to hear anything encouraging coming from me or the rest, I would be happy to do so over e-mail).

    And as for my grammatical and spelling errors that happen time and time again in comments and blog posts....I offer my sincere apologies. .Lord knows how many times I have made Chantell's heart weary upon my errors.

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  63. Benji the Lapdog,

    Regretfully when we reformatted the site, we got rid of the analytics. Laziness has been the reason I have not reinstalled it. So i have not been able to see visits for some months now. But I do have a few other ways to quantify the number of visits. Most notably the number of page impressions from advertisements which literally results in money. In the past week(since anonymous first posted), I have made $5.50. I know that doesn't seem like a lot, but that is easily the highest gain I have seen in any one week here on SAL. So it's safe to say that the number of visits have gone up quite a bit in the past week. So thank you much anonymous.

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  64. To all involved in these week long disagreements, I think this video very much so symbolizes the disagreements (bear with the first 30 seconds or so of indistinguishable chatter):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BMT6BfxR7w&feature=player_embedded

    Except where the argument goes to "You're not 4, I'm really 4" we have re-imagined the argument "You're not apostolic. I'm really apostolic."

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  65. To Anonymous with a vengeance:

    While I disagree with about 99% of what Mr. Riley says on this blog, and as detestable as I find it, I find your rhetoric even more deplorable. I am a fairly conservative Apostolic. I love the Acts 2:38 doctrine. I love what the UPCI has put into my life. I believe this movement is moving forward.

    That being said - you've come to this site and proven yourself to be everything the liberal/charismatic movement can't stand about traditional Apostolics, and it's got nothing to do with doctrine. It's the arrogance, the judgementalism and the failure to engage in a dialogue. You've not spoken to them, you've spoken AT them. You've concluded that you have them all figured out. You've thrown violent hate speech their way, marginalizing them, disrespecting their quest for knowledge, even though it may be a tad misguided.

    Since when is seeking knowledge a bad thing? Since when is studying not to be approved of. Obama made a startling statement recently that there can be "too much information" and a society "too well informed". That's a scary thing to say but you're saying the same thing.

    In your refusal to engage them in a dialogue regarding the topic they proposed you've proven to them that you're incapable and lack study time. You seem to think that their knowledge is a bad thing and that they should stop their search.

    As a fellow Apostolic, Anonymous, I urge you to stop these hate filled attacks on these brethren. You may disagree, and yes, I do as well, but these are the youth of our movement and they are leaving in droves because they feel disenfranchised and without voice because of people like you with attitudes and arrogant spirits.

    Please, please, reach out to these young people. Stop the infighting. You're making all of us Apostolics look bad, and you're furthering the desire for these young people to run away from the truth.

    God Bless.

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  66. anonymous to anonymous....interesting how you couldnt tolerate my condemning of what these bloggers have done, but you felt no reluctance to condemn me...young people are leaving in droves because of people like me>???really:?my rhetoric deporable....? I think that is what I am saying about them. arrogance??? violent hate speech....(hello nancy pelosi) I am incapable and lack study time?? stop the hate filled attacks.??? I am making all of us Apostolics look bad, I am encouraging these young people to run from the truth. You have got to be joking me. Well if that isnt alot about nothin, condemning me for condemning them.

    Everything you have said reminds me very much of what I have been saying to them since day one. Are you serious? Do you really think you are engaging in anything different than what I have. The only difference between you and I.. I did it with a little humor (which this site encourages) and you did it just bland, dead beat, open your mouth and let the condemnation and names fall out. But somewhere in your head, that makes you better than me... Odd.

    The regulars have been on the attack ever since, my first blog. This is the first time that anyone acknowledged that the hmh thing maybe didnt go as smoothly as it should have

    riley, I didnt ask you to announce anyone that is in a better spiritual place after meeting you. I have met those who are not.

    As to your accusations...most of you are to simple and easy, to be so ego maniacal. No conspiracy, and no stalking.

    A comment from a church member...that they could not believe this site was created and run by a UGST student, the reply was yes it is. Few minutes communication with a school official suggesting they check out the site...and a two minute response. All total at the very most about seven and a half minutes...not quite stalking.
    However your self confidence is admirable.

    But as you all knew this day was coming, all good things must come to an end. I can no longer allow you to benefit from my celebrity, unless you are willing to split the 5.50 with me... I would only accept paypal,and I want the Target account, you can keep Walmart and Sams for reasons I will not go into.

    While in reality I just jump on and off, I have decided it wastes too much time, and not worth the effort. However I trust you all will hold down the fort....onward christian soldiers....attacking the church at every bend where there is opportunity to mock or a potential for heresy more disastrous than your own.

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  67. Benji the LapdogMay 24, 2010 at 8:08 PM

    Hilariously childish with your "closing farewell."
    Attacking the church or attacking false ideas, challenging one another? Which do you prefer? FTR, you haven't commented on a single idea.

    Don't let the door hit you.

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  68. One thing I was going to say a while ago and forgot, and this isn't really a reply to anyone, just something I wanted to state:
    I read a great book by Gregory Boyd called "Letters From A Skeptic". In it he invites his atheist father (who was in his 70's at the time, and pretty intelligent), to write him with all of his questions and doubts about God, and he would do his best to answer the questions and erase the doubts. The book was simply copies of the letters in chronological order. Over the course of a few years of back and forth dialogue the atheist father becomes a Christian, pronounces his faith and died a saved Christian.

    Boyd's theory behind the dialogue was that there is no question that can't be answered proving God, Christianity and the Bible. He stated that if you believe something then your belief's need to be strong enough to be questioned. And if your belief's can't hold up to some questions then your belief's need to be better founded or reconsidered.

    A similar theory was presented in David Dark's book "The Sacredness of Questioning Everything." It's a great book that I highly recommend. The basis for these books is one which I believe wholeheartedly. For some reason Christians have gone against the bible and taken the position that asking questions is wrong.

    When Nathaniel heard Jesus was from Nazareth he asked "Can any good thing come from there?"
    A question. Which was answered. Jesus didn't condemn him for the question. Phillip didn't attack him. He just said "Come see".

    I fear for any movement or organization, religious or otherwise, which doesn't allow for questions. I believe in God there is an answer to every question. We shouldn't fear questions. If God and the bible are true, and we're looking to those for our answers how could we go awry? How can you seek God and find evil?

    I may be crucified for asking questions, but I'll never cease to ask "Why?"

    It matters not to me that things have been in place for long periods of time and a lot of people believe it. Even Hitler, the personification of evil said "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it."
    I'm not accusing anyone of lying, but history has proven that errant theories prevented to misguided individuals can result in mass delusion. That is why we must NEVER cease to ask "WHY?"

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  69. To the anonymous who disagrees with me 99%...

    I was just talking with my friend tonight. And I just mentioned to him how your comment made me the most happy of all in this conversation in the past week (maybe something you don't want to be proud of)....

    I welcome disagreement. I hope that people find my faults. Of course I don't want to be thought of as despicable, but i guess it comes with the territory, and I am sure you have your reasons for it.

    But for whatever it's worth, thank you.

    In debt,

    Joel

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  70. Did "99% Anon" just compare Stoneking to Obama... That kinda makes sense... Both are illogical and have strange followers..

    PS. 1. Does 99% Anon have facial hair?
    2. Does 99% Anon think Stoneking should get married?

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