Wednesday, July 14, 2010

#171-Home Schooling (and other ways I began to confuse redemption for an escape)

When I was growing up I was shoved into the local public school system without a second thought. I was left to the wolves as they would shove evolution down my throat before I could even see above the counter at McDonald's. The system would also tell me where babies came from and mention the fluids involved before I knew how to say "three" properly (I always said "free"). If I was caught mentioning Christ or praying over my food, I would be invited to attend after school detention wherein I had to write on a notebook piece of paper over and over again "I will not use the alleged names of deities in the sky in common discussion amongst my friends, nor in prayer to myself."

Okay, so I kind of exaggerated the above. Actually I exaggerated all of it. Public School was nothing stressful. The closest my Christianity clashed with public education was when my Mom didn't want me to read Wrinkle in Time because it contained witches as characters and talked about mysterious "New Age stuff." So the teacher let me read Adventures of Tom Sawyer instead (I won that one!). However, years later I found out Wrinkle in Time was in fact a Christian book by a Christian author.

So as I was guided into the maze and confusion of public school where identity is at a premium, because you don't feel like you have one. The days were long, life was hard. Most tragic was that other kids continually wet their pants and watched Power Rangers (which I hated). In my loss of self-identity in the public school system, I lashed out and told anyone who was willing to listen how in the great future, we won't need parents or teachers because everyone knows that robots are more useful and cheaper than live adults.

But, there was one aspect of schooling that always struck me in the raw. It was that when I went to church, I had a few friends who would tell me about their days of playing at parks, and going roller blading in the middle of the sunny day. Happy Meals were not the exception but the rule for lunch. "How... but how?" I would ask...

They would answer: "homeschool."

Homeschool was another word for "I only have to do work 3 hours a day" and then I get to do whatever I want when I want.

I cursed the gods. My whole desire in life at that time was to be a pirate. And here are these kids who have the time and freedom to build their own pirate ship out of legos that they could one day ride into the sea because they had a 13 hour play day every day.

But, there was a disadvantage of the home schooler as well... As they did their PACEs and watched their video lectures in their own little box of isolated life, I was facing the glorious imperfections of the world on a daily basis and enjoy learning its ways.

While I admired the leisure of the homeschooler, it was my homeschooling peers who would come to in order to uncover the latest "swear" I had learned in school, or hip lingo. While my church friends would watch McGee & Me, or Gerber, I was spending the night at my friend's house from school to watch Ace Ventura Pet Detective or Tommy Boy.

And thus our lives were at a stand still. The grass was greener on the other side for both of us. I wanted the free time to be a pirate, and my friends wanted to face life and world in the raw.

But the divide, as it played out over time got wider and weirder. Once puberty hit, the difference between the appearance of the public schooling Christian and the home schooled Christian was akin to the difference between Chimp and man. The home schoolers were dressing like their Dad because that was the only clothing style they had observed. I was dressing myself according to the cultural trends at the time en masse (I looking more like the ape).

Pilgram's Progress was read by the Homeschoolers. I was reading the vulgarities of Holden Caulfield in Catcher in the Rye.

On Halloween they were having a Harvest Party. On Halloween I was wearing a Bill Clinton mask and bringing home pillow cases full of candy that will probably give me cancer when I become old.

But the personality of a home schooler was the most unique aspect...

As far as I can tell, the homeschooled child is the neatest and most organized genre of people I have ever met. And likewise, the chaos of public school brings no organization other than the embrace that there is no such thing as organization.

The Ethics of Homeschooling

The question is dear reader, which path is the correct way? Or as I would argue it, which is the better way to define holiness as a society?

Is holiness a complete separation and isolation from the world to which it disdains? And the only path into the world is for a quick grab and go back home happy meal?

Or is holiness a separation from the world and then a re-entry into the world descending into's depths trying to recover what it may in the process?

Obviously my answer is biased. I have seen the homeschooled run into trouble once they graduated and went to college where upon they were not prepared for the plight and chaos of academia and all it's vices. I have seen homeschoolers thrive in such an environment as well, being a living testament to the incarnation while not losing any of their core values.

On the other end, I went through the public school system and when I left for college, I had seen enough of the world to make me want a full buffet of it, and left church for a period. Likewise, I have seen some very confident individuals go to public school and arrive at college without a concern or temptation to fall because they had grown so strong in their convictions amidst the chaos.


  1. Being a strong advocate of homeschooling, I will admit that homeschooling will only work if the parent(s) maintain a hands-on approach and can KEEP THEIR CHILD'S HEART in the process. Otherwise, like the examples used in this post, the child will be sneaky and just find ways to get what he "feels he is missing out on".

    In the best scenario, I do believe homeschooling is by far a better way to educate my child.

  2. Public schooling helped me figure out why God was always telling the children of Israel not to live among other nations nor marry them. Being different can be especially difficult when those "other nations" are group of young people without any spiritual guidance. But of course, the children of Israel didn't have the Holy Spirit, cause that's the only thing God ever promised would empower us to be witnesses.

    So even though while I was there I sometimes wished I wasn't, I thank God for my public school experience. My church used the opportunity to start a ministry at my high school, and I saw God change people's lives because by the time I graduated, they weren't influencing me but God was influencing them. I still recall writing in my journal one evening "God's really no respecter of persons, He filled so-and-so, such-and-such and even those guys with the Holy Spirit at church this Sunday!" Thank God for His grace which keeps us all from becoming mere statistics!

  3. As a person who has had experience in a wide gamut of schooling venues (public, private, home, UPCI, Southern Baptist, Church of God, etc.), I think I can confidently state that picking the right school option is situational and should be chosen with the best educational interests of the kid in mind. It depends on the types of schools available and the quality of said schools. I think to make it a binary is unhelpful.

    And if you're getting at the idea that some people rationalize homeschool as the better choice because of some sort of monastic mindset (shield/separate them from the world), I think that those people have misunderstood the purpose of being a Christian.

  4. @Ryan I agree.

    That's a very Essene-ish concept anyway.

  5. I come from a background where I was homeschooled for 8 years of my life and went to a public high school. I can truly say that I wish I would have remained homeschooled for the 12 years of elementary and secondary school. It does damage and removes an innocence that cannot be recovered. Homeschooling is proven sociologically to be more beneficial for children. I am not understanding why guarding your child's heart from the things of this world would be viewed as negative.

  6. I'll be up front that I'm biased in this debate; I attended public school for most of my k-12 (three years in private school overseas) and my undergraduate degree is in secondary education. I really get tired of all of the bashing of public school that goes on among pentecostals. Hiding your children away from the world is the very antithesis of what we are supposed to be as Christians. Keeping separate from the world in terms of our habits and completely walling ourselves off from them are two entirely different things. How can we speak to the world and why should they even care what we have to say, if we find their presence so detrimental as to fundamentally corrupt our children simply by virtue of proximity?

    Further, Rachel no offense intended, but what do you mean by "homeschooling is proven sociologically to be more beneficial to children?" What is the metric of measurement? Are you talking about mental/spiritual health, psychological stability, or educational/professional success?

    I've (unfortunately) had to read quite a bit of educational scholarship and, with very few exceptions, most studies only come up with correlations, not solid conclusions that "prove" anything. Further, for every study conducted there at least two or three others that find results to indicate the opposite. If apostolics think homeschooling is better for their children based on spiritual grounds, fine and well, that's its own topic for discussion, let's not blur in other vague concepts to justify our actions.

  7. I am a parent FIRST AND FOREMOST, Chady. Therefore, FIRST priority to me is my children. My SECOND is a lost world. I think some of our churches have that concept BACKWARD (and thus many parents lose their children because of that misguided concept). I believe the promise was given to me "and MY CHILDREN, AND to all that are afar off......." You may think that order is coincidence. I do not.

    If I believe God has placed my child in my care and my responsibility to them is FIRST, then WHY DO I THINK THROWING THEM INTO A DEN OF LIONS (which is what Public Schools CAN be) is wise? It is MY responsibility to reach out to a lost world and TEACH my children to do so - BUT UNDER MY SUPERVISION. My children learn to do so in their capacity UNDER MY SUPERVISION. My children invite people to church regularly (people of ALL ages). I believe very much in reaching out to the world, and am teaching my children to do so as well. BUT UNDER MY SUPERVISION.

    Need I list all the scriptures there are on sheltering? On how God SHELTERS His children?

    I know there are good and bad examples on BOTH sides of this issue. Homeschooled children are not guaranteed heaven and public schooled children are not guaranteed hell. But please, Chady, do not try to use this "hiding your children away from the world" garbage as a justifiable reason to put my children in public school. You better believe I am going to hide my children away at this stage.

    I was waiting for that warped logic to come forth and it has. So, now I wait further attack...

  8. I should hope no one will attack you, Darla. I'm sorry if my response seemed like an attack on Rachel, it wasn't intended to read that way. We're only trying to foster useful discussion here.

    I would say, Darla, that I really wonder if you are a parent, first and foremost, according to the scripture which you insist on using as a reference. Need I mention the entire Gospels, which consist of God becoming flesh, walking amongst a lost world for 33 years, and sacrificing himself for their sake, undeservedly? Need I mention the fact that, time and again, he refused to separate himself from the unclean? Consider Jesus' conversation with the young man in Matthew 19 or Jesus pointing to his real family in Matthew 12:47-49.

    Let's be clear, the modern christian obsession with the family is not wholly biblical, it is also, and perhaps more so, a current manifestation of nineteenth century Victorian discourses on gender roles, child-rearing, and utility to the state that, for a multitude of reasons, have become entwined with christian "values." The sort of family Paul wrote about in I Chorinthians bears very little resemblance to the kind in the movies "insert one of the many christian family movie companies" keeps sending to us. (an aside: we've informed them on multiple occasions we don't want their movies, why not use the money instead to donate to an orphanage or some commensurate charity, and yet, they keep sending.....)

    Darla, what you do with your children is your business, and no one is trying to put your kids in public school---I'm certainly not. What we are discussing, is the "warped logic" that uses a bunch of randomly thrown together, incoherent arguments that have less to do with protecting and nurturing children and more to do with paranoia and revulsion of a dying world, the very world that needs us most. You say this doesn't apply to you, that's awesome. But, unfortunately, it does to others.

  9. I went to public school for my entire tenure as a student and I wouldn't have it any other way. What I have seen for a lot, but not all, of home schoolers is that they wind up socially inept. They lack the sociological fabric to interact with and relate to people outside of their bubble.
    Their interactions wind up so limited that they wind up under developed when it comes to day to day interactions with everyday society.
    Granted, I know this is not the case for everyone, but why would you want to raise a kid that is going to be socially polarized.
    Here's a thought: be a parent. Raise your kid to make good decisions. Teach them right from wrong. Tell them how to say no. I was offered drugs, cigarettes, alcohol and sex several times in junior high and high school but due to a BALANCED upbringing I knew how to say "no".
    I think home schooling in our movement is a biproduct of a number of things. One is an irrational phobia of everything that isn't Pentecostal. People fear what they don't understand and have never been exposed to. I'm grateful that I was exposed to the world but taught my boundaries. I've never experienced culture shock, but I know who I am and I know whose I am. A lot of time with homeschooling there winds up a level of arrogance, depending on what the parent tells their children. Unfortunately some indoctrinate their kids with this whole "you're better than the world" thing that puts them at a disconnect with society.

    I could ramble on, but I'll just end there.

  10. I most assuredly did not have a good experience in public school, and a good portion of people I know it affected negatively.
    As to my research, yes I did extensive research on homeschooling. I was hard-pressed to find information which supported public school, and was only able to find very little. Most of it was written from a feminist perspective on how women shouldn't be in the home, etc, and was not based on empirical research.

    The Bible commands parents to "Train up the child in the way he should go.." When children are under the influence of people with completely other ideas and belief systems than you are there is a problem. However, from your perspective, Chady, it doesn't seem as if instilling doctrine and Biblical teaching will be a priority when you have children anyways. For people who legitimately care about their children being raised knowing the truth, it is important. As well, if it is such an issue you NOT sheltering children, perhaps parents should go with their children into community places and teach them how to defend their beliefs and witness to others under their protection FIRST.

    A few things to consider.

  11. I have read your comments with mouth agape because, truthfully, I have never heard these arguments from apostolics before. EVER. These are the arguments I hear from the world. Every apostolic I know who does not homeschool usually wishes they "could". Although I have much to say in response, I won't. (Since some of my initial points were not addressed anyway).

  12. I guess my question is (and i ask without an answer),

    What is the purpose of CHristianity?

    Because I feel like whatever we think the purpose is, then it will partially help answer why we stand on the homeschooling issue the way we do.

    If your main purpose of Christianity is salvation so we can get into heaven, then homeschooling makes perfect sense so it attempts (in theory) to separate their children from the world as to protect them as to maintain their "salvation" status. Plus confusion will be at a minimum.

    If your purpose of Christianity is more of a reconcilation mentality, then it's all about being separate from the world but yet living in that world as you try to redeem (through CHrist) how Christ redeemed you.

    This purpose will see the world not as a place to be avoided but as a place that demands interaction so that GOd may gather what was meant to be His through his servants. Obviously this purpose would find one's kids almost demanded to be in public school.

    I realize I probably oversimplified things. But i guess as I was reading the comments from both sides I kept on thinking that the shock and horror of each side about the other was probably derived from a different mindset of what CHristianity should be.

  13. Joel,

    I think you nailed it. It boils down to perspective. Do we embrace a monastic mindset and hide away from the world and set up binaries, i.e, what's in the world is bad and what's inside the walls we've set up is good? Or do we say there is bad in the world, but there is also good in the world and Christ is about reconciliation and redemption and so let's understand the good and bad that is in the world so that we can communicate to the world a better way to live through Jesus.

    I think if you teach principles then you are able to confidently interact with a world with different beliefs and values that the ones that you ascribe to and are able to retain your sense of self and identity without walling yourself off. And frankly, such a mindset reeks of fear. Following Jesus is supposed to rid us of our fear right?

    I think it's problematic when your idea of affecting change in the world is inviting them into your four walls where everyone else walks, talks, thinks and acts just like you do (i.e. "church").

    Let's remember that the disciples were probably teenagers.

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  15. Ryan,

    I dig your comment, as do I Joel's. Your analogy of the walls is what I was talking about when I said there's basically a World-o-phobia among Pentecostals. We're much more comfy living separated in our four walls, "safe" from foreign influence then actually going out and evangelizing. I grew up at a church like this. There was ZERO effort to connect to the community, and 100% of efforts were spent on those inside the four walls.

    Allow me to take this a step further. Public school not only teaches us how to socially interact but it also presents a variety of concepts and points of view. This isn't to say we should be ecumenical but we should know why we believe what we do while being exposed to alternatives and be able to defend and explain our belief's.
    Isolation leads to this whole "we're right because we're right, and everyone else is wrong" mentality which is absolutely disgusting. I went to school with Muslims, Hindu's, Atheists and Jews and I never once wavered on what I believed because my parents did their job AT HOME so I was EQUIPPED when I went into SOCIETY.
    If Jesus ate with prostitutes and sleeze, who do you think you are that you don't have to?



  17. My goodness, by your guys' thinking, Jesus should have been able to be among "prostitutes and sleezes" (Glen's words) by the time He was 3! He had the fullness of the Godhead in Him, after all!


  18. Really? And you think Mary and Joseph kept him locked in the basement until he was 30? Or at least 18? Really?
    How old were Shadrach Meshach and Abednego? 47?
    You love your kids and want the best for them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and I do not begrudge you one bit, no one does.
    The problem with society is that parents don't protect their kids enough from evil influence.
    Please don't take any of mine or anyone elses comments to mean that we think you should just throw your kids to the wolves and hope for the best.

    It's just my opinion (an opinion that may have its flaws) that out of love comes a desire for children to grow, advance, prosper and be successful. In my experiences I've seen my friends who have gone to public school be more well adjusted and adaptable to society and the ones who were home schooled be maladjusted.

    I don't mean to demean you Darla, not one bit. No one can look down on loving your kids. I just hope that if you aren't sending them to public school you're still getting them involved with community sports or some sort of activity where Apostolics aren't the only people they know. How are we supposed to win the lost if we don't know any? And how do we meet any if we don't go where they are? That's all I'm saying.

  19. I have to agree with Darla. You guys did okay in public school? Great. But it has taken down many. It is a parents job to protect their kids first from influences of the world. I know many homeschooled kids and they are NOT socially inept. Where on earth do you get that? Do you mean maybe that they are not like you??
    You guys need to get a grip and stop looking at things from your own narrow perspective....
    The purpose of Christianity is to save the lost but not to sacrifice your children in the process. Homeschoolers can reach people too. In their neighborhoods,4-H, Homeschooling groups etc. Two of the homeschoolers that I know are going out the country on an exchange program by themselves (aged 15-16).
    Ryan,Glen you need to rethink what you are saying. Evangalism is possible w/o sending your kids to public school!

  20. can ANYONE support this statment?
    "Homeschooling is proven sociologically to be more beneficial for children."

    All Christian kids in public school wish they were homeschooled? Really? What a blanket statement. I guess I happen to know a few wacked out ones then.

    Middle and High School especially are preparations for interactions in a vast and diverse world. It's a warm-up and opportunity to have critical conversations with your kids. Allow them to ask questions that their environment will provoke. What a beautiful thing!

    Like many things in life, I know my children will fail and mess up along the way. As much as I can be like my Father, I want to be patient and able to teach them in these moments. Show them how to live for Jesus outloud. Teach them that holing up in a cave is not how we live the Gospel. Living as a Christianity is not compartmentalized into "reaching the lost" over here, and "parenting over here." It's all one thing. Everything should point to the cross and Jesus. Our whole life, remember?

  21. There is nothing wrong with homeschooling your child. But the attitude of elitism from homeschooler's and their arguments in support can be quite ludicrous.

    Yeah... Essenes.

  22. FTR, I've done it all: Private school, public school, charter school, homeschool. It's been a wonderful ride. I can see the moral concerns in a public school setting -- especially if the goal is moral perfection or a gospeled heart. I also see the benefits. The social aspect -- in fact, I'd suggest my social skills were mostly affected by the public school. I know kids from homeschool environments. I see how they interact with others outside their circle. It's painful. While there are some exceptions to this, it's a pretty accurate stereotype.

  23. I have never put my children in a nursery or daycare. They never went to pre-k. They have never played with kids whos dads have porn laying around the house. Of course my children have never developed an appetite for a lot of friends so it’s no big deal.

    They don’t even really know they are missing out on. They wont learn about sex from selfish punks who care nothing about their souls. They don’t get wedgies in the bathroom (except from dad or brother and those are healthy wedgies). No one steals their lunch money. They don’t learn that evolution is truth. They dont know that according to this world homos are heroes. They dont know that being bisexual is cool. They have no idea that pregnancy out of wedlock is normal. They are oblivious to just how deprived they really are. Please don’t tell them.

    Dumping our kids in an atmosphere of all sorts of ungodly behavior is not worth the risk. I don’t completely restrain them from the world rather I go with them into the world. I don’t drop them off at the worlds doorstep and hope they won’t be burned. That’s foolish. God doesnt win us one day and expect us to be missionaries the next. There is a training process.

    I definitely want my children to be salt and light and I believe they are. Who does the Dentist notice, watch and take note of? The average flesh baring selfish little miley cyrus girl or my wholesome Godly daughter with a modest dress and meek spirit? Who speaks louder?

  24. Wow. That's all I can say. Just wow.

    I went to public school and I didn't learn about sex from a punk. I didn't get a single wedgie, never had my lunch stolen, never was taught evolution, never had a homo hero (although I'm interested to pitch the idea to Mattel.."Homo Heroes: The Pink Avengers"), I don't think I've ever met a bisexual, and no one in my high school ever got pregnant.

    This is exactly my problem with home school. The picture you just painted is so far to the left of reality that if it were true we'd all be forced to live with scarlet AP's on our jackets and live in the woods cut off from society.

    I mean really? That's really what you think your kids third grade teacher would teach them? How are we supposed to walk out the door and witness if we're terrifying ourselves that everyone out there is a wife swapping, crystal meth addicted tranny?

    I'm sorry but I know far too many people in this world that don't even believe in God but have more morals in their homes and lives than some of the idiots we let speak into our kids lives! Because we all know, NO preacher has ever been caught in an affair..or molested a child..or been had by a character actor when he should have discerned it.

    Ya know the first person to introduce me to pornography as a child? A kid at my church. First to introduce me to alcohol? Friends from church. First to introduce me to marijuana? Church kids.

    Maybe I went to the only school and work the only job in the world where people still have morals and ethics, which would be extremely ironic.

    I'm sorry to put you on blast but that mentality, that every person outside of your house is trying to turn your kid into a little gay drug dealing thief is so disgusting it makes me want to puke.

    Do what you feel is best for your kid but don't sit here and proclaim that morality only exists in the church. It's simply a lie.

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  26. I prefer to take my kids to the slums of the city, feeding the poor, tolerating their liquor-stained breath, needle-infested arm, and porno mag sitting under their sleeping bag.

    I'd prefer my kid to hear about evolution and have that opportunity to contrast a God-view of the topic and encourage their pursuit of Truth, teach them and encourage them to ask questions, learn, and help disciple them to take all things back to the cross.

    I'm not a moralist. Jesus didn't come to make bad people good, but to make dead people live. I'm not so sanitized from the symptoms of death, that I don't realize the dentists' observation of my daughters long hair and make-up-less face is somehow a seeing of righteousness. I know that the way people know we are His is how we love those we are in community with, and how we treat our neighbors. I'd rather be known for that, than by anything else. At the end of the day, I know in I am no more righteous than the next guy, and though life has helped me live healthier above sin, I still am very much infested with sin and worthy of death. I am no better than the next kid.

    Yes, I will protect my kids as-is age appropriate, but I refuse to put them in a cage, playing Savior in their life, so consumed with worry that they will be marred for life.

  27. ***Ya know the first person to introduce me to pornography as a child? A kid at my church. First to introduce me to alcohol? Friends from church. First to introduce me to marijuana? Church kids.***

    Thats why I think many youth groups are even more evil than public schools, at least at school we expect kids to act like the world. Sorry your parents didnt shelter you more. After all youve been through with peers I find it amazing that you are an advocate for dunking our kids in the sludge of this world so they can better deal with the sludge. Amazing.

    ***Maybe I went to the only school and work the only job in the world where people still have morals and ethics, which would be extremely ironic.***

    So your from Mayberry? Hows Barn?

    ***I'm sorry to put you on blast but that mentality, that every person outside of your house is trying to turn your kid into a little gay drug dealing thief is so disgusting it makes me want to puke.***

    O now, its not worth puking over. I dont think everyone is evil except us. This may be a shocker to some of you but we get to experience the ugly sinful side of the world right in the enjoyment of our own home. Front row seats. We don’t need public school to teach us how to lust and be greedy. We are human. Fallen humans. Of course there are indeed some faces of sin and shame that my children will never experience but that's ok they get the idea just by being human.

    Its not us against them. Its us learning how to love them, from a distance at first and then gradually closer and closer. My kids are learning to love others, by slow orchestrated exposure not slam dunk drown yo butt immersion.

    ****Do what you feel is best for your kid but don't sit here and proclaim that morality only exists in the church. It's simply a lie.****

    Thank you for allowing me to do what I feel best, very generous of you. How many children have you raised? Do they serve the Lord?

    As far as me thinking morality only exists in church, huh? Who said that?

  28. Yeah, public schools are bad, youth groups are worse. The only way to save your kids is to hide them in a cave where your sins will be more tame for them to deal with. Then when they grow up, WHAM!. Son, meet the world.

    Actually, they will probably remain in a church culture where there is an invisible bubble everywhere they go. They're interaction with the world, is an invitation to church :) Nevermind, invite out to have dinner or drinks, nevermind invite them over for dinner, go camping with them, babysit for them, serve them, love them, no we are too worried about being contaminated. In one breath you acknowledged are equal problem with sin, but in the other, we made the assumption that somehow our sin is better.

  29. We shop at a store in the hood. We see porn on billboards. We deliver meals to the poor and needy. We pass by whores and topless bars on our way to church. We talk about these things. My kids prolly know more about the ways of the world than many of their public schooled peers. We read the Bible, they know about rape and murder. They arent worldy, yet they are learning about the world.

    Its not that I dont want my kids to see or know about these things I just want to be with them when they are exposed. I want to carefully calculate the exposure. I want to mold their perspectives. Direct their eyes to Him.

    Again, how many children do you have? Are they serving the Lord?

  30. Glen-
    I went to public school and I didn't learn about sex from a punk. I didn't get a single wedgie, never had my lunch stolen, never was taught evolution, never had a homo hero (although I'm interested to pitch the idea to Mattel.."Homo Heroes: The Pink Avengers"), I don't think I've ever met a bisexual, and no one in my high school ever got pregnant.

    We are happy for you. But all that happened in the small private school that I went to (and that was 30 years ago).

    I have never witnessed an elitist attitude from homeschooling parents.

    You are generalizing.

  31. You missed about 90% of what I said. I was exposed to the evils of the world in the church, and free to live for God at school. You're far to paranoid that there's a rapist lurking around every corner trying to snatch your kid.

    And no, not Mayberry, live in the fifth highest crime city in the country and work in the fourth. So no, not Mayberry. And I said I was exposed to things, I didn't use them. I didn't need my parents to shelter me, I needed them to do exactly what they did: teach me how to say NO, like a good parent should. Sheltering isn't parenting, sorry chica.

    And you're right, I never raised a kid. But I was raised by great parents who TAUGHT me what to do, then allowed me the freedoms to make the right decision. And in the event I made the wrong decision I was reprimanded. Because that's parenting. I will raise my kids the same way I was raised. They will be taught righteousness but in the end they have to choose their path, and if I did half the job my parents did, they'll choose the right one.

    As I said to Darla. I completely understand loving your kids, worrying about them and wanting them to be protected. However, you protect them by teaching them, and as you said, easing them into society. I'm cool with Christian school. Not Apo-only schools, but Christian ones.
    I just hate hate hate the paranoia that everyone in the world is immoral and unethical. There's as much to worry about in the church as out of it. The best thing you can do is prepare your kid for it because you WILL have to cut the umbilical cord eventually and it's better that they're prepared than to be completely shell shocked.

    Please, stop with the snarky backhanded rhetoric btw. It's very unbecoming.

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  33. Glen-
    Who said that everyone in the world is a rapist or unethical or immoral?? No one said that. But there are attitudes, world views, and of course sin that people do not want to expose their kids to on a daily a basis for 6-7 hours a day.
    They make the hard choice to homeschool. It is a sacrifice (in many ways). Their families give them a hard time. And then you come along and judge them because you did not have a bad experience in public school? How do you know what they have been through. BTW when I say I am happy for you, I mean it. You are the exception NOT the rule.

  34. You know, Darla, your language (the choice of words) reveals an awful lot about your heart, far more than the tremendous love for your children that you keep repeating.

    You drive by "whores" everyday? "Homo Heroes?" How sad, give Matthew 15:17-19 a read. I think Jesus is reviled less by the actions of the lost, than by the evil that proceeds from our own hearts.

    ps. To everyone, please stop with the "I know of this person or that person that had this experience in this kind of school." Everyone knows of a person, this is a waste of typing, it's not proper evidence and useless to an actual debate.

    Finally, I'd like to apologize to the majority of the readers, both those who are Apostolic and those who are not. I fear the worst in all of us has come about in this post.

  35. GT:
    Perhaps you're so cut off from the rest of the world that you don't know what's actually happening in it. From the picture that you've painted of schools and the inhabitants thereof, it seems that you've described them all with a very wide, generalized brush that is inaccurate at best.

    Also, if you believe that youth groups are bad as well as public schools, do you allow your kids to fellowship there? Or can they only witness to the dentist under your supervision? Are they allowed to have friends? At what age can they have interaction without you supervising the environment?

    Another thing, asking how many kids people have raised isn't a helpful tactic. It leads back to the ad hominem fallacy that we've discussed before: attack against a person. In other words, argue the argument, not the arguer or his/her credentials or lack thereof.

    Also, your question seems to suggest that people can only be right or have a valid opinion if they've experienced something for themselves (in this case, raised children who meet your criteria of success) - which would invalidate the idea of education and learning from any other source than experience such as books, classes, lectures, conversations, etc.

  36. Chady,
    If we dont speak of our experiences what can we speak of?

  37. Brian, I'm not talking about personal experiences. I'm talking about vague references like this:

    "I know plenty of ill-adjusted socially awkward homeschooled kids."
    "I know plenty of completely healthy, morally upright public school kids."

    My point is that this can't and shouldn't be used as a valid point in an argument. Everyone knows someone that proves their point and someone who doesn't prove their point. It just becomes filler when we throw this back and forth. For this to be a worthwhile debate we need something more substantial, like critical social analysis and concise references to appropriate biblical source material, etc.

  38. ***Perhaps you're so cut off from the rest of the world that you don't know what's actually happening in it.***

    I know all too well. You just arent going to convince me that public schools are not full of humanistic sinful worldly people and teachings. They are.

    ***Also, if you believe that youth groups are bad as well as public schools, do you allow your kids to fellowship there?*** Not without me. My oldest is 12 so just now entering that age group. I love my children, they are my responsibility. The church, the government, the public schools...none of them are responsible for my children. I take parenting seriously. its my job to see my children love and serve others. PS promotes self awareness, self esteem, self exaltation. No thanks.

    ***Or can they only witness to the dentist under your supervision?*** Whats wrong with witnessing to the dentist? Dentists are people too. Plus he needs Jesus.

    *** Are they allowed to have friends?*** Carefully selected and under close supervision.

    ***At what age can they have interaction without you supervising the environment?*** Just as soon as they are trustworthy. Its not an age, its their attitude and maturity.

  39. GC,

    I appreciate your reply to my post, and I think you're probably doing a fine job of raising your children. I just see things a little differently I guess.

  40. GT - at least you're consistent. Lol.

    I am sad that your view of the world seems so negative. There are some great things that are out there. God made a beautiful world with some beautiful people. Although they may not share your views, there are still many things that can be learned and appreciated through and from them. Living a life fearful of contamination seems too restrictive for me, but to each their own.

    Grace and peace.

  41. I am coming back into this. I would like to point out that I am a 20-year old third-year University student which was homeschooled until Grade 9, and put into public school for the remainder of my education. The older I became, the more I realized how many future social attitudes were becoming solidified in public school. The acceptance of pedophilia being one of them. I distinctly remember in grade 11 hearing a fellow classmate excuse and justify pedophilia. I was required to attend an "Anti-racism" day which included "Accept homosexuals and lets blast those who do not agree with homosexuality" The point is, the public school system that is responsible for children is doing things like this WITHOUT parental permission or knowledge. I am sorry, but if I ever have children, I will not put them into public school. Parents have a responsibility to direct and guide their children.

    Ryan, I would like to address your point: you sound like a hippie. God is pretty straightforward about what is right and wrong, but you have to be strong enough spiritually to deal with the opposition of the world and its perspectives and paradigms. A five or six year old child will not be ready yet to go out and hug homeless drug addicts on the street and tell homosexuals they can be healed of AIDS, much less deal with the pressures of peers, deal with bullying (a huge problem within schools that has not even been addressed with the comments) Fear has nothing to do with it: loving your child enough to walk with them until they can walk on their own has EVERYTHING to do with it.

    If we want a different perspective on the world, the Bible talks about the heart being wicked and deceitful. As far as I understand it, everyone has a heart, therefore everyone's nature is wicked. As people filled with the Holy Ghost we need to have enough sense to protect innocence, instead of exploiting it.

    Kudos to Darla, Graceful Threads and Brian. It gives me hope to see solid parents who aren't afraid to stand against the "emerging Apostolic movement."

  42. To all:
    This subject. Well, I do believe that this decision should be left up to parents who, 1). Pray until they hear from God about what is best for their child. I think it's an important enough decision that should be prayed about and whatever God tells you, then you go in that direction.
    I have been homeschooled and put in public school in grade eight. I was bullies for a year. Until high school. I never received that treatment at home. I also was never socially inept. At all. When I at age 15, can carry on a conversation with a 50 year old then turn around and talk to a 5 year old, I wouldn't call that SOCIALLY INEPT.
    I adored being home schooled. If done PROPERLY, it is an amazing thing. I do not think that a parent who has their child's best interest at heart will willing drop their child off at preschool or kindergarten. It is too dangerous at that age. Now when a child is older and more founded in their walk with God, it is different.
    I do believe that a parent SHOULD protect their child as much as possible from this world while they are young. I am an 18 year old girl, who is still innocent BECAUSE my dearest parents thought I should be kept that way. I am not jaded because of a terrible experience I've had in school. But I did learn things in school I never wanted to learn and God has had grace on me and blocked this things from my memory.
    I will repeat, I do not see anything wrong with a parent who wants to protect their children for as long as possible. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS. A child is a child. AND for anyone to think it is okay to let a child learn certain things a certain way, and that children need to grow up sometime, these people have never had children. A parent always should/needs/wants to protect their child for as long as possible.

  43. What does said movement have to do with home school?

  44. Rachel,

    Thanks for your post. It's the funniest thing I've read all day. First let me address your ascribing my identity as a hippie. If it's a compliment, thank you very much. If it's an insult, I've been called worse. Either way, I've been chuckling about it on and off ever since.

    Second, addressin/attacking a person rather than their argument is an Ad Hominem fallacy. Look it up.

    Third, while you're looking up logical fallacies, check out the Straw Man fallacy. That's what you did when you put words in my mouth.

    Grace and Peace

  45. Sounds like two ladies were thrown into public school late into their teen years and didn't know how to adapt to the environment. The world (unbelievers) has some people, especially in a classroom, where foreign ideas are brought up and they get an opportunity to discuss. I remember being on the minority opinion, and other times being in the majority opinion. It's the beauty of a society too! Yes, there are extreme views, but we learn to interact with differing opinions and viewpoints.

    No one is advocating throwing a 5-year old into a crack house. Last I checked, the other 5-year olds aren't selling drugs either. Good grief! :)

    There's no comparison to social aptitude in public school vs. private school or even homeschool. The diversity, the opportunities to learn, the challenges to grow and the ability to learn to not be shell-shocked by different people is a benefit and a beauty. And you know what? A few of my friends from public school were even half norma! Imagine that.

    Paranoia. It's a funny thing.

  46. Hippie. Haha. I'd take it as a compliment. It's not so bad. Peace and love my brother.

  47. Ryan is a hippie. I've seen him.

  48. Reminds me of a YouTube video. I think you will enjoy this (yes, even you red-faced homeschool-only folks! ha)

  49. I homeschooled for a few years as a child. Then when I started back in public school, I was pretty far behind. I caught up quickly and excelled, and ended up ahead in all my classes throughout middle school (thanks to God given brains and hard work)...then in my high school years my pastor insisted the young people of the church attend the church's Christian school. I got through Christian school like a breeze (PACE's=EASY), but afterwards, when I took a college entry level exam, surprise, surprise...I was behind again. Regardless of the argument of protecting your children from being exposed to 'evilness' good of an education are they really getting by being homeschooled or attending a "church" school, both of which are probably taught by well meaning people that aren't necessarily qualified to provide a quality education? Just asking an honest question based on my own experiences.

  50. Some Girl: That is an honest question and it is unfortunate that your homeschool (and church school) education was like that. I do know of a few people who homeschool their children who SHOULD NOT, because they are not serious enough about their children's education. However, by in large, (with a BIG majority) statistics show that homeschooled children (schooled PROPERLY) excel and are more advanced academically than in the public system. I do have Canadian statistics for this although I would have to figure out how to get them to you if you really wanted them. Where I am from, homeschoolers have such a good reputation that they can get into university now - sometimes with only a pre-interview (and no diploma or proof of marks), or by writing an entrance exam. In fact, some universities (even I am told in the States, although I cannot confirm which ones) actually SEEK homeschooled children because most homeschooled children have become excellent at "independent learning", which is very much required by the time you enter university.

    The last thing I want to say is this. Curriculums are made nowadays (I cannot speak for 20+ years ago) that it is very easy for even "ignorant" parents to help their children. There are numerous ways for a homeschooled child to find out something they don't understand (help lines, on-line, etc.,) that there really is no excuse for a child not to excel academically. In the best case scenario of homeschooling, parents OVERSEE their older child's education, making sure they get the necessary help when they don't understand themselves, but staying connected to that child while doing so.

    After all, those we are most CONNECTED to really are our best teachers.

    Hope this helps a bit.

  51. No, it is simply that Apostolics with convictions they desire to uphold are going to have a more difficult time because of their contrasting spirit and attitude than those who have none. Sorry for the bashing, but it is true. I have found people who are "closet-Christians" don't really have that much difficulty adjusting or fitting in. In high school, I had no desire to fit in, because that would mean I would have to have lost my purity, innocence, and beliefs. And on a side note, my sister and I combine have brought over thirty young people to church in the space of a few years. Two of them were from high school.

  52. Academic education has become just one more idol for us to bow down to. Yes, it may be important. Particularly for my boys who will one day need to support a family. Of course I am hoping they would have their own business so that they can focus more on God and family, you know, homeschool their own children. :-)

    The Bible talks very little about the importance of education. It just isnt the most important thing. Not even a requisite for serving the Lord. When God got ready to pick His men to turn the world upside down He chose *ignorant and unlearned* men, apparently calculus and trig just dont impress our God.

    Not saying we shouldnt value academic education, just saying God doesnt value it like this world does. He looks on the heart not our high school transcripts.

    If I was basing my decision for my childrens schooling on where they will get the best academic education, my considerations would be different. Academic education is not at the top of my list when deciding whether or not to homeschool.

    Christ, His principals, His word. Integrity. Character building. Service. Loving others more than self. Relationship and obedience to parents. A serious love for Christ and His Mission.Relating to this world in a way that pleases Christ.That is what I am trying to teach my children. Math is second.

    FTR: I do use what is often considered the most thorough and challenging curriculums available. It is accredited and includes advanced material that my childrens PS counterparts wont learn. My children, so far are excelling, my daughter struggled some in math so we hired a tutor to come in for a few sessions.

    This may be offensive to some of you intellects, but academics education is over rated. Knowledge puffeth up. Colleges are full of Humanism. Only one thing is needful and it aint algebra.

  53. Hey guys, watch this! :)

  54. There's no need that academics are an idol because you believe in its importance. It becomes an idol when it's worshipped more than God. Morality is an idol. Homeschool is an idol. We trust our shelters more than His shelter. I definitely take into consideration the academic of a school if my child will attend! Are we serious here?

    It's not either/or -- poor academics vs. your child not being a drug addict. These are false choices.

    And Ms. Rachel your nasty attitude about calling us "closet Christians" because we interacted just fine with the world around us is sickening and a perfect example of homeschool elitism. I guess Jesus was himself a "closet Messiah." Closet nothing. I live my life with the Gospel in my life out loud. That doesn't mean I pull cigarettes out of their mouth. It doesn't mean I become the morality crusader. It means I show my life in a Gospel way, establishing friendships and seizing those opportunities when people have crisis in their life, or when they become curious about Jesus. Who is more of a light to them -- those hidden in caves, or those living the Gospel out loud in front of them?

    And you know what? In middle school/high school, I didn't fully have that Gospel thing down. And you know what else? Your angel homeschool child probably doesn't either. They may obey your moral rules, but a Gospeled heart is more than obeying your stringent rules and keeping their hands clean. You are like the man who hid the talent in the ground. So careful, so afraid, not trusting Jesus to help raise your child. If you choose homeschool because it fits your situation -- fine. But to choose it in deference to the reasons you've all shared thus far only reveals the ugliness of religion.

    I'd be disappointed if my child didn't feel like sinners. If we didn't get to share moments together talking about a life without the Gospel. If we never were able to discuss why some believe in evolution, and if age-appropriate, share with them all the various theories behind the creation story. Oh, to stretch their mind, encourage their curiosity and instill a discipling-fire that seeks to ask questions. Yup... but I guess that's just for hippies.

  55. I get the impression that alot of the posters here are bitter towards religion, particularly the Apostolic religion. So you've been burnt by the hypocrisy? Well, you prolly aren't going to single handedly weed out all the problems in Pentecost.

    Try working on yourself, when you get your spirit right then you can be a blssing to others.

    How would God like you to react to the problems you see? You know He has orchestrated the scenario you find yourself in.

    Remember that most Apostolics sincerely love God, and if they dont it *is* your responsibilty to make sure they see and feel the love of Christ. You are your brothers keeper.

    Dont be so angry about your religion that you lash out at everyone who is finding Christ in a religion that you were burnt by.

  56. "posters here are bitter towards religion, particularly the Apostolic religion" I don't think that is right. The posters here look to love God so much they are willing to speak up agents that which they see as treating to jeopardize the mission of His church; to do the work of Christ, to seek and to save them that are lost.

    I will say this thread has gotten a bit personal here lately and I hope that changes.

  57. first...i'm really salty right now because i wrote this really long and eloquent rebuttal to some stuff...and then something went wrong.'s the long and short of it. Homeschooling is good. Public school is good. Depends on the area. If the schools in your district are bad and you...i dont in a BAD AREA....then more than likely the environment is bad.

    but if certain kinds of Apostolics would actually get some sun and meet some parents and get to know them, maybe they'd learn who the "good" parents are and the "bad" parents. Parenting extends beyond the household. My parents used to meet with all of my teachers in elementary school before the year started and 9/10 times they ended up being spirit filled believers, maybe not apostolic, but either God fearing people or spirit filled people. Sometimes I got switched out of a class because the teacher wasnt up to my parents standards. That's good parenting. They established a relationship with the teachers so the teachers would look out for me or call home if i was having troubles.

    Sheltering is good in a sense but we all have to be exposed to the real world bit by bit. Feelings are real, and feelings will be hurt in life. Friendships begin and end. Joys and triumphs all are apart of life. You learn these things in school and in part you learn to see God. When people made fun of me I'd tell my parents, who would hug me, tell me that my feelings were real, but they reassured of who I was as a person and as a child of God, and furthermore they taught me from a young age how to pray. After the pep talk, we read the bible and we "told God how we felt"...THATS when I learned real world application of prayer and understanding of the scriptures.

    Christianity, like my younger counterparts have said was meant for real service by real people who have had a changing encounter with Christ for real people who are lost in their journey and life was meant to be lived.'s what I really wanted to say, moreso for my older brothers and sisters on this post who keep calling into question how saved one is or how "real" others are. It seems to be an apparent spiritual generational gap which can't be filled. In this apostolic "movement" as i guess its called in UPCI, young ppl in every organization are seeking God and trying to go DEEPER in God by asking questions and SEARCHING the scripture and are going about it in different ways...we're really on fire for the Lord and our approach to the world is that we need to go out and try to win souls, not as trophies, but as real concerned members of the body of Christ.

    Nobody is hateful towards being apostolic, nor are we detracting from the message...we LOVE the message, thats why we're here. We're here to DISCUSS AND CHALLENGE each other for further spiritual thought and enlightenment. I trust the Holy Ghost in them and I trust my salvation to be able to go into the "forbidden realm of excess thought". Guys..well gals, this younger generation of Apostolics is a beautiful thing and I fear that you will be blind to the great revival underway. But i implore you, please don't try to stop the move of God. we're going into canaan and we're about to reap a great harvest. don't get stuck in the wilderness wandering and possibly die. Just pray for us if you think we're hell bound, but don't berate us with discouraging words. please? pretty please? with sugar on top???

  58. GC,

    Part of the new comment policy is no Ad Hominem.

    In this case Ad Hominem would be accusing the posters as being bitter towards the Apostolic Pentecostal movement and that's why they don't like home school. It's a blanket assumption and it has nothing to do with the topic.

    Not everyone who disagrees with you is a liberal bitter charismatic hippie. There are pastors who comment on here and you'd never know they're pastors because they don't throw a "reverend" in their screen name. So please, stop dismissing dissenters as children of a lesser Christianity.

    Joel asked a question that STILL has not been asnwered:

    Is the purpose of Christianity:

    a.) The reconciliation and evangelization of a lost world


    b.) To attain individual salvation.

    Please answer.

  59. Sorry to dual post but I did wished to keep the two separate.

    It would seem that homeschooling as well as many other topics seem to be affected by several narratives in our movement. I'm not saying that every one or even most AP subscribe to any one of the narratives or that only APs subscribe, but that they are there.

    1, modernism.
    2, Anti intellectual, the narrative goes that you can be smart or a Christin but not both. I would like to counter this by bring up Paul and Luke, both of which would be call doctor if they had lived do day.
    3, Anti government, the narrative goes that any more government than is required to not get invaded or over run with crime is evil. Although the US government does a few stupid things from time to time we could do a lot worse.
    4, Isolationism, the narrative goes that the wold is so evil that we can't be near it. But what about the life of Christ, or that hole salt thing?
    5, "We can and must protect our kids from every thing," the narrative could also be called a 0 risk tolerance with respect to our kids. We can crate walls but walls fail and the better ones come with a high price.

    There are more but I can't think of them right now.

  60. You ask that question like both are unattainable, Glen. Obviously our greatest commission is to evangelize the lost. However, in the process we need to keep outselves (and our families) from becoming castaways.

    So, the answer should be straight. BOTH. Not either/or.

  61. I am thrilled to hear about young people living for God. Young people who want to serve Him and not a religion. Thrilled! Grant it God. Young people really are our only hope, but you cant be effective if your bitter towards the problems you see.

  62. Interesting thought: Not all homeschoolers teach their own for religious reasons. *gasp* We are bringing our kids home this year because public school failed them academically. I am absolutely arrogant enough to think I can do a better job than they can. One thing we are teaching them is informal logic, something that several commenters as well as the original poster would do well to brush up on. :)

  63. Lee,
    I never directed specifically what I said towards anyone. The Bible states, "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." (James 4:4). It is not a matter of being "socially inept" as I have volunteered at a women's shelter, as well as a crisis pregnancy centre. I was actively involved in a community organization long enough to establish rapport with the young people there (This was still while I was a teenager). However, there is always a friction in the spirit of someone who has the Holy Ghost when in contact with someone who does not. My point is, unless carefully guided by parents who are monitering your activities and holding you accountable, public school can be a huge detriment to an Apostolic young person. I came out fine and all the stronger for it, but it was not without a price. My involvement with the community was also monitered by my parents, and I was held accountable. I am a huge believer in reaching the lost, but children have to be mentored and guided by parents to do so. I do not believe public school is the ideal setting for this.
    Also, psychologically and sociologically speaking, the majority of teenagers are going to seek approval from their peers. Because of the way I was raised and my parents constantly letting me know I do NOT have to fit in. It does NOT matter what other people are doing, it only matters what YOU are doing. This mentality kept me through high school, but it was not easy. People knew what I believed and where I stood.

    We need to reach the world, but not at the cost of sacrificing our kids.

  64. Rachel,
    Thanks for your response. How do you interpret this passage:
    "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." (James 4:4).

    Is this "world" here a person? I recommend reading the entire section of where this verse is. And before you answer, keep in mind what the religious hated so much about Jesus --- he hung out too much with those filthy sinners! In fact, so much so that he developed quite a reputation. They called him a winebibber.... a friend of sinners. Is it possible to not be "of the world" but friends of fellow sojourners. Is it possible to bring sinners into your home without buying into the deception of the world and its empty promises?

    This post set-off so many because herein is a fundamental difference of opinion among many younger Pentecostals. Paranoia and cave-hiding, handling sinners from a distance isn't as popular anymore. We want to smell like them. More than 80% of Jesus' sermons, quotes and sayings were in the town among sinners, not in the temple, on home turf, safe from them.

    We obviously don't have to abandon parenting in the process. But we are mistaken if we believe we are any safer with someone that has the same church membership. Even more dangerous is lukewarmness, hypocrisy, etc. Parenting helps guides children through it, not around it. Not avoiding. Through it.

    Bless you and your desire for your children. I think the post exposed, though, something deeper than parenting.

    (anyone watch the youtube video? come on, you know it's funny)

  65. I think the homeschooling advocates here have said at least 100 times in this comment section that we dont want to just completely shelter our children from the world, rather we want to go *WITH THEM* into the world so we can properly train them how to deal with it. See the difference? Huge difference. Please see the difference! Please.

    Its inevitable they will migle in this world. We WANT them to. We actually have a very strong burden to raise up soldeirs for Gods army. To work in His Kingdom. I have 5 children, I have a vision for them to do a mighty work for the Lord, that is why I homeschool. I want to instill in them His burden.Period. Its all I want.

    Do you really think we are investing all this time and training into our kids just so we can raise up little pharisees who will never serve and love others? Think again. Thats so far from the truth.

    We dont stick our heads in the sand, or live in a bunker. Its not us against them. Its us learning how to serve them so ew can love and win them. We take very seriously the command to teach them in the morning and when we walk by the way and when they lay down at night.

    I am preparing my children to work in the world not hide from it.

    I really think some of you are so mad at the church you cant see past your frustrations.

    Its like every time someone posts their burden, in this case for their children you lash out and say....Well, thats because your a self righteous Pharisee.....Quit letting your bitterness dictate every thought you think.

  66. Dear Graceful,

    Thank you, but not bitter. Hopeful. Revived. Upbeat. Energetic and optimistic about the future of the Church. That comes with reflection, critique and a willingness to speak out and no longer hide in silence and fear.

    I respectfully disagree with the arguments you raised to justify a homeschool-only policy. I've stated those reasons.

    You support going "with" our kids through this world. So do I. In fact I agreed with all of your first paragraph.

    I don't think you want to raise up "little pharisees" and I do believe your intentions may be positive... mostly.

    I'm sure you're a great mother and will raise wonderful children who will one day make a decision to follow Jesus as passionately as you do.

  67. Lee,
    The video is hilarious. Tim Hawkins is awesome.

  68. Saw Tim Hawkins in person. Love him. He was just on the cover of a Homeschool mag I recieve. He and his wife teach their 4 kids at home. You can see in that homeschool video his wife is wearing a wig, she was in the middle of chemo treatments.

  69. I am an Apostolic PUBLIC SCHOOL Teacher...gasp! I get paid to go into the Lion's Den! I feel that it is my job to show the love of God through my actions. I have been able to pray for children, witness to students, and even explain why I always wear skirts. I have families that stop by my room to ask for me to pray for them or for their needs. I have never told these people I am pentecostal or that I believe in the awesome power of God. I feel that I must be a light in the darkness.

    There will always be flaws in both public school and in homeschool because they are being run by flawed people. I agree with previous posts. You must ask yourself why are you choosing to homeschool? Is it because the school system where you live is not great and you could do a better job? I get that. But we have to be careful to not hide away hoping the world will find God. We must be careful to not foster the culture so much that no one wants anything to do with us. We have the truth, we have the plan of salvation, we have nothing to fear.

    Should children be thrown to the wolves? Surely not! But they should be able to attend any public arena without the fear that their salvation or their innocence might be lost. This is possible when they are prepared by parents that can train their children that they can be in the world, but not of the world.

  70. Stephanie, bless you!

    I especially enjoyed this part:
    "This is possible when they are prepared by parents that can train (teach/guide) their parents that they can be in the wrld, but not of the world."

  71. Stephanie: You have still missed the BIGGER point, as have most of the others opposed to homeschooling. I actually very much admire what you are doing, and advocate it strongly amongst ADULT Christians. I actually think there are some that Jesus calls to TEACH PUBLIC SCHOOLS, as part of their ministry. *GASP* I actually know of several public school teachers who are apostolic (who are very supportive of homeschoolers), and some young Christians who are thinking of teaching in the public system as part of their ministry. There is a wonderful purpose in what you and others with the truth do in the public system. There happen to be a lot of children in particular, and other teachers and adults in the school system who do not know Jesus, after all.


    Although I still think parents are BETTER teachers of their own children in most cases, I do NOT have the privilege of having someone with the truth teach my children.

    Which brings me to the point I made at the very beginning - CHILDREN in the "lion's den" and ADULTS in the "lion's den" are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.

    I really wish that point would be understood. Everyone keeps thinking the ministry of a kindergartner or 10-year-old SHOULD be equivalent to that of an ADULT. ??? I truly, truly, DO NOT GET IT.

  72. Darla,

    I think the bottom line is, those of us that disagree with you don't picture all public schools as the 'lion's den'. I labor under the assumption that most parents want their kids to have good educations and send them to school to learn. And that most people who choose teaching as a profession choose to do so because they want to educate kids and prepare them to be able, functioning adults in society. Also, I believe that most 6-10 year olds are not corrupt, evil children who are out to taint, despoil, and otherwise sully your offspring.

    So it seems we have a fundamentally different perspective. And correct me if I'm wrong. But you view all public schools as "lion's dins" (which I translate to mean evil, sinful, bad places) where good, godly children shouldn't be because you're afraid they'll catch something sinful and turn out to be lost.

    I view public schools as a place where kids go to learn and come in contact with other beliefs and different perspectives than their own, but will be able to handle those differences without losing their way to Christ since they have parents who are teaching them core values at home. And maybe, just maybe, that 6-10 year old will share the Message with someone because of that.

    Does that seem like an accurate summary to you?

  73. Yes, Ryan, it does, and thank you for being respectful in your comment. This will be my last comment on this topic (since my three comment rule has long ago flown out the window) and I'm sure it's getting rather tiresome in general to most people.

    I (like most people) went to public school. Before I was married I didn't dream of homeschooling. Now, through trial and error, and I will say quite a bit of research, I have a very strong opinion on this subject. I never expected to come to this point of view in all truthfulness.

    I view public schools as the "lion's den" because even if my child had the perfect teacher (like Stephanie above), the biggest influence of all are their peers. And as much as I would want my child to be a positive influence on the kids in her/his classroom, the ratio of 20:1 (of non-apos, although I'm sure some would be from some type of Christian home but with different beliefs) would much more likely have my child being the one influenced.

    As much as everyone has stated in this post that it's GOOD PARENTING that will get their child through public school, that can only be partly true at best. As long as the parent is NOT with their child for those 7 hours a day, the child is forced to choose in their heart loyalty to their parents, or loyalty to their peers, who are most likely in opposition to the parent's belief.

    THAT, in a nutshell, is my BIGGEST concern about public schools.

    One of the books I've read is from Dr. Gordon Neufeld "Hold On To Your Kids", and has been a huge influence and reason my perspective has changed.

    Whoever the child holds closest in his heart is who the child will try to emulate. And that, my friends, makes 7 hours a day away from me much, much too risky.

    God bless everyone.

  74. Hey, homeschool your children. I'm not opposed. I'm confronting the elitist "homeschool-only" syndrome for the reasons offered.

  75. Darla,

    I was going to email you but i couldn't find an email address to locate.

    Anyways, I just wanted to thank you for coming to the blog and continue commenting. It takes a lot of "hootzpah"(yiddish for courage) to come into such an antagonistic atmosphere and not compromise. While the disagreements have been many you have continually come back to let your voice known regarding the various issues. I think that such discussion is absolutely necessary if we plan on establishing any sort of unity within this movement.

    Thanks kindly,


  76. It looks like many assume if the local teachers were all upstanding Sunday school teachers and deacons, then, public school system would be great... I disagree.

    While a Christian education is a noble pursuit, other reasons to homeschool are to excel academically and get a broader social experience (yes I meant to say that). Our family does just that, taking advantage of many opportunities that are simply not available to institutional learners who are confined to be with only like age peers.